Changes.

[Quantum]

Greetings Genesis!

Lately I have been pondering changes. There have been a lot of changes to Genesis. Particularly recently. As Zizuph stated in the racial rebalance thread, when all stats were rebalanced and everyone lost a lof of xp, people left. Lots of people left.

It seems like every time there is a major change, a change to the core mechanics, people leave.

My question is then, why do the immortals continue to make major changes?

I know that over the years, there has been a slow decline in the player base, which then rose again during covid. And I understand that some people are frustrated with certain aspects of the game. Too fast, too slow, good xp, bad xp, melee advantage, caster advantage, racial advantages. There are many things that need to be balanced. But some of us have stuck to this game for 30 years. And not because it is a perfectly balanced game. Rather in spite of the many glaring imbalances. Some have stayed through them all, others have left at some point and come back.

Which then begs another question, would the game be better if we rolled back all the major changes? Would some players come back if we did?

Let me know what you guys think.

Brother Quantum

[Cherek]

The last 2-3 years we have indeed made many changes, and there has been lots of praise but also lots of complaints and people who say they will leave the game due to same of the changes. Before that, the main complaint was that we never make any changes and never try to fix any of the big issues with the game, and many said they left due to numerous issues the game had then and/or our inability to fix them. So, if we roll back everything I assume we will go back to complaining and leaving because of the issues we had then. It’s not like people started to complain about stuff and started to leave the game just recently

Five years ago lots of experienced players complained about casters being way too good, while many new players (and old ones too) complained about EQ not saving. Players also complained a lot about unplayable and obsolete guilds, as well as the very imbalanced races and unfair PVP. We have attempted to and are attempting to fix the things players mainly complained about, and now of course some players are complaining about the fixes and wishing we could go back to how it was before - but there were just as many, if not more, complaints by those same players back then…

I personally think things are much better now when it comes to some of the things people mainly complained about five years ago. No new player complains or leaves the game because they lose EQ. Players still complain about caster/melee balance, but the complaints go both ways now, which makes me think that there is no clear winner between caster and melee anymore, which is a step in the right direction. More guilds are definitely “playable” now compared to five years ago as well. Imbalanced races and one sided PVP remain on the list of things to fix.

It’s perfectly fine to not like the changes we have made of course, but there is obviously no way we are rolling everything back and undoing everything we believe in and have spent so much time on. A future Keeper and Admin can roll back as much as they want of course, and if that’s what you want, I suggest aiming for the Keeper position. “Wiz to Admin and do it yourself?”

Regarding declining player numbers, the main reason is because we get way fewer new players now than we did during the pre-Covid spike in new players. And the reason we get fewer players now is because Google shut down their Chrome App Store last year, which was the by far most important way we got new players. While the changes we make in the game of course has some effect on players numbers, it’s a very small effect compared to a massive decrease in new players because we are getting much less free exposure though the Chrome store. Replacing that steady stream of new players will do much much more to increase player numbers than any major change (or rollback of changes) we do. And anyone who wants to can volunteer and help out with that.

[Snowrose]

This is a thirty year old game and times have changed a lot since the golden days of MUDS
obviously older members are going to either be whatever its still genesis, or highly resistant to any changes, even if they are beneficial, but older players will probably come back after a bit of hibernation (thats why we are so old)

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Newer players are coming in with a POV of what makes a modern game good, more mini pings, more dps more tank more power quicker levelings. being the very best that noone ever was....(breaks into pokemon theme)

also in modern games there is a ton of "how dare this other class get a <enter irrelevant thing here> when my class needs <enter wished thing>

ie in a thread about race rebalancing started an argument about vampires being to strong. is not directly related, it is a argument tactic called beating the straw man where you change a topic you do not feel you can "win" into one you have expertise in, or actually want to discuss.

if the races are fairly balanced even in ways we don't like, its not gonna make a guild more OP than it already is leaving one thing unfair cause you feel some other thing is unfair is not "balence."

((now im not saying vamps being op or gobbos getting more quest access are not valid topics , it just needed their own threads))
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Stripping all the changes is NOT GOOD either, we have a lot of quality changes in there things we don't want to lose, things that took a lot of work and care.

such as saving racks, the magic system, newer guilds, old guild tweaks, (i LOVE the changes to elven archers and archery system compared to 15 years ago) And I am enjoying other more personal recent guild changes as well.(not going into to much detail there)

The point (took my sweet time getting here didn't i)
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My point is change is gonna happen especially when people complain about balance or feeling weak, or things being to strong. or leveling being to slow/fast.
and its more often going to not gonna make everyone happy, but it is the wizards answering a cry for help just the same.

I may not agree 100% to changes that have been made, bit I am not going anywhere. and I do think these changes may be considered positive in hindsight.

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if wizzies ask for feedback I try to work within the scope of the project,(i don't always succeed, im not perfect) I offer minor ideas or tweaks i think would make it nicer or more logical or say i really like ideas i like. focusing on what can make this idea work/better rather than "this sucks" or derailing is more likely to get positive results.

[Greneth]

If changes were rolled back I'd most likely quit. No point in coding for a game that doesnt want to evolve and slowly die. Without changes this game would have been shut down in the late 2000's to early 2010's when I would wake up and see 5 players online.

[Riva]

I've had my fair share of gamer rage over new changes. The white hit change I hated, suddenly it was a different game. Over time I realised the game was faster and in general combat was more fun (for me at least) we all adapted to the new normal. The newest change I still don't love, but I and most others are adapting. Any future change I'm sure I'll be upset and complain, but I'll adapt. However, I don't think I could adapt to or keep playing is a game that is so resistant to change that we go five steps back and pretend game design is the same as it was in the 90s.

I think people's tastes have changed. I know mine has. I think it'd be shooting ourselves in the foot if we just went backwards. Old games that fail to modernize usually die, that's the simple truth of it. I think the healthiest approach for our community as a whole would be to collectively try and be less knee-jerky and agro about every single change, and for my part I want to really try not to be going forward. Just because something becomes different does not mean it is ruined. I love this game and I think it's truly magical, otherwise I wouldn't have spent literal years of my life playing it. Changes that give the game new life and let it continue to be magical for the people who will play it long after me or you or any of us are a good thing.

[TaranGoatWalker]

It's the new generation that saved this game... and it's them the changes have appealed to, I'd say.

[Goirbagh]

Newer players are coming in with a POV of what makes a modern game good, more mini pings, more dps more tank more power quicker levelings. being the very best that noone ever was....(breaks into pokemon theme)

This is not a good way of thinking about the playerbase which I discussed in another thread.

The newer players you are speaking about are high-churn, meaning they come, play for a month or so, and then leave again. Catering towards high-churn vs. diehard players who will stay for life is not a matter of keeping the game alive or letting it die. It's a false dichotomy.

I like that the game is evolving - many things are getting WAY better. What I don't like - and this is a societal and cultural trend, but I had hopes that Genesis would somehow stay strong and not fall for it:

Giving everything to everyone. Making everything fair and balanced. Being afraid of generating the smallest bit of frustration in the player. Being afraid of requiring some effort on the player's end.

I do not like - actually, let me rephrase that - I absolutely despise the posts on racial changes, saying that it shouldn't matter so much for combat.

It's a trendy, modern, post-modernistic, inane way of thinking about things.

Some races are and should be way better at physical combat, maybe even combat in general. This makes the choice in and of itself interesting. If all races are equal in every way except for the text used to describe them (because that's what you're reducing them to if you equalize everything) and possibly emotes, then why even have races? If we balance all guilds, then why have guilds? Isn't the idea of being somewhat weaker and fantasizing about becoming more powerful and joining a stronger guild what makes the entire process of applying to guilds interesting?

Why can't there be an effort-reward transaction anymore? This seems to be a general societal trend. You shouldn't have any advantage because you're a particular race, have a particular education, because you're taller, stronger, more handsome or anything else in life. Well, to me, that makes life extremely dull and uninteresting. It's interesting that those who usually say "we have to make life/game more fair and inclusive" are the ones who seem to absolutely hate the idea of people being different and having different abilities in life/game.

My two cents: Genesis is still something I cherish, but it has turned into a chat because everything else is uninteresting. There's not much to explore, there's not much point in any guilds, everyone is playing on their own and the entire concept of exploring together is mostly gone. I want the game to be ridiculously unfair and funny, sometimes buggy, crazy and wild, causing both laughter and anger. That is what I expect from life in general, anything else isn't really interesting in the long run. We (those of us who've been here maybe 20+ years) love genesis because of the crazy moments - good and bad - not because we could max everything one week into it. This striving for perfection makes it more boring. Imagine marrying a perfect spouse - perfect in looks, behavior, wisdom and so on. Good Lord, can you imagine how boring that would be after a week or two?

PS. Just for you to have something more serious but still related to think about, we are creating the same sort of setup in society, which turns it into a dull, gray mass. We are in essence trying to remove consequences from bad life choices, but the effect of it is that the choices themself stop mattering, which makes it pointless to make the choices to begin with, creating a very depressive zombified way of life.

[Snowrose]

note my post i was making fun of the two extremes, you are right, most people who stay are going to be in the middle. so catering to either extreme is likly a mistake.

but i am definitely saying we should not rollback because a lot of good changes have happened, and as things happen a new balance also arises,

balancing the races over all is a good thing, its a matter of how we balence, it doesn't need to strip identity, i think Zhars idea was brilliant. everyone keeps thier ups and downs just with a more balanced and less extreme point system.

also there is nothing to stop races in the future from maybe getting some feats or perks to offset hardships. like not being able to join guilds, or enter cities, that has nothing to do with stats.

[Goirbagh]

balancing the races over all is a good thing,

I think this is a word salad.

1. Define what balancing entails
2. How can we know whether it is good or bad?

[Snowrose]

balancing as in making the numbers generally line up mathematically.
people can still have perks and weaknesses, we do not need to minimize everything to human norm to be fair, if they set it up with kinda of a point buy it can be fair with minimal impact.

gobbos still get technically the best str
all the suggested methods we have had gobbos still rule str just maybe not as much as they used to, but they also in most the suggestions get a bit of a buff to their lower stats to make up for it.

i liked Zhars idea because
the buff and nerf wasn't just one buff one nerf it had 2 of each, and it wasne just all mental or all physical it was more along the lines of what we currently have, just with two stats at human norm.

good or bad is subjective
i think it will be good you think it will be bad, realistically it could go either way, but it is likely gonna happen regardless of our feelings.

It is better to try and be positive
saying it is gonna suck no matter how they do it, will not improve the chances of it being a positive experience, making suggestions on how it may be tolerable. might encourage the wizards to take our advice. and maybe make things livable.