Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

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Kas
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54

Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

Post by Kas » 06 Jan 2013 13:56

Alright, there is a claim floating around about race statmodifiers growing out of propotions at higher mortal levels. This claim is currently not properly substantiated.

Is it possible for the wizards to test this claim, using an elf, human and goblin with max focus on physicals as a base? No need to reveal anything technical to us mortals, but a confirmation/rebuttal of this claim would be nice.

Thanks.
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

Arcon

Re: Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

Post by Arcon » 06 Jan 2013 14:17

I don't think a elf should ever in anyway be able to get as strong or sturdy as a dwarf or a goblin. Or a goblin as agil as a hobbit or elf etc etc.

But I do think that mentals needs to be used it combat. Dis is how confident you are and we all know that you work a lot better with cofidence then without. Int and wis should be able to aid in combat by tactical thinking, how to take advantage of weaknesses and using the terrain to their advantage.

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Kas
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Re: Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

Post by Kas » 06 Jan 2013 14:50

I don't mind some variations, but scaling might be an issue if they are nonlinear. If the function of size becomes polynomial(nonlinear) during growth, stuff may start to look ugly when approaching myth, or into myth and above, therefore I think it's a good thing to put this claim to the test.
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

Amberlee
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Re: Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

Post by Amberlee » 06 Jan 2013 16:16

Ok Arcon.
What you are getting caught up in now is shoulda, woulda and coulda.
And you completely forget about actual GAME DESIGN and BALANCE.
Goblins compared to Humans(Because Humans represent the average)
Goblins gain strength 50% faster, same gain on dexterity, and.. gain con 50% faster.
So at the same average.. when a human has supreme str, dex and con.. What does a goblin have?

Now lets take the "worst" race in genesis and compare.
Elves.
They gain strength at a 30% slower rate then a human.. Which is a wooping 80% slower rate then goblin.
They have a slight advantage of gaining dex at 20% better rate.. But then gets screwed again by gaining con at a 20% slower rate then humans, or 70% slower rate then goblins.

Now take the effect of this into the game.
That means when lets say a Knight faces a BDA in PvP, lets say even in size, that means he is outmatched by the sheer stat factor to begin with.
Or if a BDA attacks an even sized elf.. That elf dies so quickly he barely has the chance to try to run.
There have been numerous examples in this the last couple of years. And it makes me sad, because i know what ever i try to accomplish out there either with my Knight or Ranger, all it takes for my enemy is a lucky hit and im from FVW to dead.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Greneth

Re: Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

Post by Greneth » 06 Jan 2013 16:59

amberlee wrote:Ok Arcon.
What you are getting caught up in now is shoulda, woulda and coulda.
And you completely forget about actual GAME DESIGN and BALANCE.
Goblins compared to Humans(Because Humans represent the average)
Goblins gain strength 50% faster, same gain on dexterity, and.. gain con 50% faster.
So at the same average.. when a human has supreme str, dex and con.. What does a goblin have?

Now lets take the "worst" race in genesis and compare.
Elves.
They gain strength at a 30% slower rate then a human.. Which is a wooping 80% slower rate then goblin.
They have a slight advantage of gaining dex at 20% better rate.. But then gets screwed again by gaining con at a 20% slower rate then humans, or 70% slower rate then goblins.

Now take the effect of this into the game.
That means when lets say a Knight faces a BDA in PvP, lets say even in size, that means he is outmatched by the sheer stat factor to begin with.
Or if a BDA attacks an even sized elf.. That elf dies so quickly he barely has the chance to try to run.
There have been numerous examples in this the last couple of years. And it makes me sad, because i know what ever i try to accomplish out there either with my Knight or Ranger, all it takes for my enemy is a lucky hit and im from FVW to dead.
lol

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cotillion
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Re: Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

Post by cotillion » 06 Jan 2013 17:52

Race stat modifiers do not affect how fast you grow. Other than how they affect your ability to kill things.
If you switch race you will have the same stats as if you'd been that race all the time.

Amberlee
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Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

Post by Amberlee » 06 Jan 2013 17:59

Yes that is true Cotillion.
They do not affect your average in that way since the stats themselves are in fact stored aside from Racial Modifiers.

As for the second of your claims that the stats only affect your ability to kill things.
Why you are correct AGAIN :)
Also, THAT is the core ofthe PROBLEM.
Strength, Dex and Con are the ONLY important stats in genesis.
Int, Wis and Dis is irrelevant.. (Ok Dis is ok enough to have up to a certain level so you can actually attack stuff.. But that goes quickly.)
And no.. Caster guilds does not matter at all.. They are few, and most of them are evil.
And even caster guilds focus more on con then on mentals.. So yeah there you go :p
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Laurel

Re: Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

Post by Laurel » 06 Jan 2013 18:20

Example that I can calculate myself:
gobbo (or dwarf) supreme str needs half as much (actually even less) exp invested in that stat as hobbit str

that means that IF a hobbit reached supreme str, s/he could have already str AND con at supreme as gobbo, solely from the exp s/he spent on her/his str

go figure ;)

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OgreToyBoy
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Re: Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

Post by OgreToyBoy » 06 Jan 2013 18:21

Always thought the modifier gave xx% more xp in that stat after it was earned using HUMAN base values.
With a softcap that would actually make human the best choice IF you manage to reach these really high stats
where softcap is noticeable.
So [numbers removed] xp earned as human is [numbers removed] xp as goblin etc. The tables are the same, might need [numbers removed] xp to reach [numbers removed] STR
and [numbers removed] xp is enough to get [numbers removed] STR.

Might not work like this at all though :)

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Cherek
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Re: Genesis racestat modifiers, claim.

Post by Cherek » 06 Jan 2013 18:39

So what would you like being done Amberlee? You have told us what is wrong, but you havent given us a suggestion on how to make it better. I am mean I dont think anyone can argue that this is NOT a problem. It's of course completely clear that goblins, from a combat perspective is currently by far the best race. That's already established, but what to do about it?

Just make all stats 100% equal? Basically everyone are humans but with other descriptions?

Or make the differences much smaller? So we're talking about 98%, 102%, 98% etc, instead of the much bigger differences we have now?

Or like Arcon suggested, make int, wis and dis count in combat too. That sounds pretty complicated though...

In an earlier thread about this I suggested making stats more equal than now over the board, and also make all races mathematically equal in the two stats groups, phsyical and mentals abilities + add a unique ability for each race. So, for example, if we say [numbers removed] is the baseline number (totally made up):

Humans: [numbers removed]
Goblins: [numbers removed]
Elves: [numbers removed]
Dwarves: [numbers removed]
Hobbits: [numbers removed]
Gnomes: [numbers removed]

And then we do the same for mentals for all races. Well you get the idea.

If everyone had the same physical average and the same mental average, but with variances, I think we would still have pros and cons for all races, but still a very fair and even group of players no matter which race you pick.

And, to make things a little bit more fun, if someone wants to code it, every race could have a special ability unique for that race. Something usuable for a period of time, with a cooldown.

So all dwarves could have some type of "battlerage" ability for instance, that slightly increases their con or defence, or something. All goblins have a "frenzy" ability that gives them more offensive power in combat, elves can dodge, hobbits can trip the opponent, and so on... These abilities should be slight, and balance-wise they should all be equally useful, but in different ways.

This would be a bonus of course, since it requires some work to do, but the above is the most important step I think.

Thats my suggestion on how to make races more equal and still let them be different.
Last edited by Cherek on 06 Jan 2013 18:50, edited 1 time in total.

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