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Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Posted: 19 Jan 2013 01:44
by Amberlee
This is where you could put in racial abilities and disadvantages in.

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Posted: 19 Jan 2013 01:49
by Cherek
arcon wrote:Does this also mean that the mentals should be equally balanced? A goblin caster will be as good as a elf caster?
Well, its a discussion. The vote is only about changing the modifiers, I dont think the "how" is solved.

In both my suggestions, then yes, the mentals should be balanced as well in a similar way. Mentals also includes DIS however so it does not mean all spellcasters will be equally good. INT and WIS would also be different.

If I was redoing it I would give goblins very good DIS and weak INT/WIS. It never made sense to me why goblins are strong mean killing machines but really cowardly. An elf would probably have average or somewhat above average INT, great WIS and really weak DIS... Dwarwes would have great DIS and less INT/WIS similar to goblins, hobbits would have be fairly average just like humans, and gnomes would be super-intelligent, have average wisdom and be really cowardly. In my other suggestion everyone have the same stats, but the special abilities differ, so yeah, each race could have a combat special ability, and a mental one, if we wanted to.

But I think mentals are trickier in general to balance, simply because its much more unclear how usable INT, WIS and DIS really are, and what they are actually used for in the game. Which is also why it would make sense to even all stats and introduce racial abilities instead...

Dump(ed Upon) Stats

Posted: 19 Jan 2013 02:35
by Strider
Racial stat modification doesn't happen in a vacuum; it happens in a donut.

The correct solution is to make everyone more obviously MAD.

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Posted: 20 Jan 2013 15:07
by gorboth
I agree with the first statement above by Draugor. I like the idea that in Genesis there are meaningful and vivid differences between the races in more than just the basic implications for roleplay. What I also see as true is that the way stats affect combat is one of five or so main things that drive the way the game feels and plays for every single character. So while I will agree with some that say that this is probably not the most important thing we need to tackle right now to fix the game, I will also say that changing the way stats play into combat would be one of the most significant things we could do to actually change the way the game plays. Therefore, it should be done with extreme caution, strong rationale, and not simply to "do something" to try to fix a perceived imbalance between racial options.

So, to analyze that last part a bit ...

I think we need to decide what the real issue is here, and what the desired result would be. From what I have heard and read, the main gripe is basically this:

To compete for size and power in Genesis, the differences between the races is so profound that there are extreme winners and extreme losers. This leads to, for instance:
  • Goblin being the one and only real race choice for the pure and competetive stat-grinder.
  • A race like elves, which is otherwise one of the most popular for fantasy roleplay, being dreadfully inadequate by comparison.
  • A race like gnomes being so stunted as to be somewhat of a throw-away or niche option suited almost exclusively to roleplay.
Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the actual issue people want to solve. If so, the desired result is probably something along the lines of ... People want there to be meaningful rewards in the game beyond roleplay for every single racial choice one might want to make. If so, I think that is perfectly reasonable and a good goal.

Now, stepping back again and looking at this in the big picture, where does this stack for me in our list of things "to do" to really get the game in good shape? Well ... if we were to divide the things that need to be done into, say, 10 tiers where tier 1 is the things we need to do first and immediately, I'd put this perhaps on tier 3 or so. In other words, I do consider it important. As I've stated, I also consider it perilous if we were to rush to take steps that alter core gameplay.

The main proposed methods I've heard that would "fix" this problem are:
  • Make all the races basically the same other than in how people would want to roleplay them.
  • Limit the degree to which people's stats can vary based on race.
  • Add special features or abilities to each race independent of normal combat.
  • Change the way combat takes stats into account.
The first of these is simply off the table, as far as I am concerned. I hate the idea of taking away the differences entirely, and would need persuasion that I cannot imagine possible to change my opinion of that.

Making the differences less profound seems not likely to really fix the problem. Goblins would still be considered the best, and elves would still be a lesser option, etc etc. Not really much of a solution, here.

Special features becomes complicated and hard to fathom. This brings to bear the idea of "asymmetrical balance" which is the hardest type to achieve. I'm skeptical of our ability to find time to code it or (more importantly) to get it right.

The final suggested method, then, where we would change the way combat takes stats into account, is perhaps what we would need to begin to consider. This, as I said, is the solution that affects core gameplay the most profoundly. However, I also think this is probably where the solution would lie in that it would be far and away the easiest to code. (i.e. we have the means.)

That being the case, I'd like to hear suggestions as to how combat could be changed to take stats into account differently. If you want to contribute to such a line of discussion, please bear in mind the goal of keeping the races very different from one another. I'm sure it is possible to make it so all races could achieve the same thing in different ways. But what would be more fun and interesting (and better design?) would be to have many different types of things worth achieving, and have each race better than the others at one or two of them.

The huge caveat: Don't expect any changes based on this discussion. This is grist for the mill, but the mill is already making flour for other loaves. If this discussion comes up with something amazing, we'll see what can happen.


Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Posted: 20 Jan 2013 15:41
by OgreToyBoy
gorboth wrote: Lots of text.
What if the different racial guilds could modify the stats? Of course some races might need a few more choices, like gnomes.
Palanthas racial offers a whole slew of opportunities, if you don't like racial choice you can settle with being average at best.
The 'new' stats would just be a skin, much like ogres (which is already made).

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Posted: 20 Jan 2013 15:59
by Laurel
I myself see only one whining-issue on this board: gobbos!

Easy fix: cut their health stat modifier down to human level or lower. In all movies they (goblins, orcs and stuff - not minotaurs tho) fall like goddamn flies and can't take even a single blow :lol:

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Posted: 20 Jan 2013 18:28
by Cherek
Gorboth: I still cant figure out why my suggestion would not work. (Or Draugor's for that matter, which is basically the same). You didnt include it as a possible solution in your reply so I am guessing you didnt like it though? Still, I'd be interested in hearing some arguments against it, since I just cant think of any good ones myself. Why dont you like it? I am talking about the suggestion to keep clear differences between races, but make combat average the same for all races, and mental average the same for all races.

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Posted: 20 Jan 2013 19:13
by Amberlee
To be quite frank..
Gorboth doesnt see the problem.
Perhaps its because he doesnt want to, or because he has become so disconnected with the game that he just doesnt realize that there is in fact a problem.
As for the lore choice of making gobbo the most insane combat race, I dont get that either.
In all sorts of lore goblins are seen as cowardly, weak critters that only attack in vastly superior numbers.

As a retort to Gorboth and his opinion that all stats should matter and that elves are superior casters.
So give us some caster guilds so it starts mattering then.
I can come up with some superb suggestions if you want.

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Posted: 20 Jan 2013 19:37
by Cherek
amberlee wrote: As a retort to Gorboth and his opinion that all stats should matter and that elves are superior casters.
So give us some caster guilds so it starts mattering then.
I can come up with some superb suggestions if you want.
Isnt it just that Gorboth himself is working on?

Regarding our current caster guilds I will argue that goblins are actually the best caster race as well. Simply because the ability to take and deal normal damage is more useful than a bigger pool of mana and more wisdom, in most cases. Of course there are exceptions to this, but if I were to play a caster in one of our current caster guilds, be that occ or layman, I would chose goblin or human as my race. Not elf which would seem like the best choice followed by gnome. I personally dont think they are the best choices for a caster though. But even if they were, goblins would still outperform all other races in combat, which still makes it unbalanced. Yes elves and possible gnomes would become more useful, but a race like hobbits would still be extremely week for all guilds, and goblins would still outperform most other races in combat... So... the problem still would not be solved... but it would definitely be a step on the way.

I also do not believe in making INT, WIS and DIS more useful in combat. Sorry Gorboth, but I think that will just mess things up even more. It's hard enough to balance STR, DEX and CON, balancing six different stats will be very hard. I'd rather say remove any specials or other combat related abilities, except spells, that use anything else than the combat stats to calculate their effectiveness. (if there are anything like that). It's hard enough to balance combat and stats. Why mix in six different stats, is it not hard enough? :)

Let INT and WIS be used for mana and spell effectiveness, and let that, and ONLY that determine how good your spells work.

DIS? I really dont know about dis. Its imho a stat that just complicates things when it comes to balance. Giving a race good dis is almost useless in most cases, and giving a race their big drawback in dis also makes things imbalanced. That is imho one of the biggest problems with goblins, that their big drawback is in a pretty useless stat. So it's not really a drawback at all in most cases. If I was redesigning stats I would probably either remove dis completely, or let all races have the same dis and dont use it for calculating race balance at all. And let dis only matter when it comes to attacking targets. Absolutely nothing else. (if it matter for something else?).

And if we badly wanted six stats I'd remove DIS and introduce stamina, determining how far and quickly you can move. That would also make my favorite topic, PVP, much more interesting. :) But thats another discussion, and such a big change probably isnt realistic anyway.

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Posted: 20 Jan 2013 21:02
by Amberlee
No he isnt working on that actually.(and with that said i'll also mention that i love the concept on the thing he is working on now)
What he is working on is actually something that isnt really needed in the game.
Another evil caster guild.. But that is entirely besides the point here.