Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

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Should race stat modifiers be changed?

YES
30
58%
NO
15
29%
I don't care
7
13%
 
Total votes: 52

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1378
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Post by Amberlee » 20 Jun 2013 18:35

Kiara wrote:So its decided then? We tweak goblins and hobbits a little, touch nothing else, and voila! Fixed. (or better anyway). And nooooo I am not just saying is because I am a kender. Goblins ARE too strong in combat and hobbits/kenders ARE too weak. Dwarves, goblins and hobbits are definitely not caster races RP-wise or statwise, so they should all be good fighters I think. And pretty evenly matched overall with different strengths and weaknesses. As it is now goblins have no weakness in combat, and only strengths. While dwarves have two strong and one weak stat, and hobbits/kenders have just one good stat and the others very weak. Not really fair at all!

What about elves which are in fact the weakest of the races in combat stats?
And what about the gnomes which are the second weakest?
One thing is for sure though.
Something HAS to be done with the insane racial imbalance.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Post by Kiara » 20 Jun 2013 19:12

amberlee wrote: What about elves which are in fact the weakest of the races in combat stats?
And what about the gnomes which are the second weakest?
One thing is for sure though.
Something HAS to be done with the insane racial imbalance.
Well like I said elves and gnomes should be the primary caster races, and would thus be lacking in combat stats. Just like they are now. All others races will, and should, beat elves and gnomes in melee combat. Of course this type of race balancing will only work if the new magic system truly makes int and wis powerful enough, to make up for the poor combat stat. Like you said earlier!

I am just blurting out ideas though, but I think it would make sense to have some combat oriented races, and some caster oriented ones. And make sure they are balanced within their group first! And then against eachother. So first we make the three melee combat races balanced against eachother, then the two caster ones. And then you work on melee vs caster balance.

If you do pick a race with high mentals, I dont think you should be able to stand up against a melee race... so if int and wis truly will be seriously useful in the new magic system I think elves and gnomes will go from weak to really good races. I assume that is the idea at least, and its a step in the right direction!

Oh and by the way I bet a mage gnome or phsusuacchee worshipper elf would beat up any melee goblin of similar mortal size without much trouble?!? So they probably arent THAT weak as you think? Not in the right guild anyway. But as fighters, yes. They are, and should be, weak. I think.

But we can always make all races more or less the same, in both combat stats and mentals?! With just slight differences in stats, and mostly rp differences. Thats obviously the easiest way?!? But maybe not as fun?!?

Creed

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Post by Creed » 20 Jun 2013 19:20

It cannot be right that some races are only good at some things.
Personally I think that all races should function decently in all types of gameplay.

Races are, to me, mostly an RP issue..
And as such, it should be possible to play a gobbo caster and be almost as effective as an elven caster.
Or the other way around, with them being fighters.

I agree that there should be differences, but nowhere as big as now.

User avatar
Recoba
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Posts: 193
Joined: 11 Mar 2010 12:52

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Post by Recoba » 20 Jun 2013 23:27

Creed wrote:It cannot be right that some races are only good at some things.
Personally I think that all races should function decently in all types of gameplay.

Races are, to me, mostly an RP issue..
And as such, it should be possible to play a gobbo caster and be almost as effective as an elven caster.
Or the other way around, with them being fighters.

I agree that there should be differences, but nowhere as big as now.
I think it would be a great idea to completely remove the race stat modifiers. It solves so many problems.

Reasons:
  • The problem of race imbalance disappears *poof*
  • There is still a choice of stats to be made through meditation, so no element of choice is lost in the game.
  • Genesis is a game where abilities come from guilds. So if races have special abilities, they should come through racial guilds. And their power should be on that level as well.
  • The stat modifiers don't even make sense in a multi-domain MUD. The domains in Genesis represent very varying fantasy worlds. A Dragonlance elf might be physically weaker than humans, but a Tolkien elf certainly isn't. Same issues for goblins and hobbits and dwarves of course.
  • The races still have lots of character, though appearance, speech, racial guilds etc.
  • If you want to roleplay a strong goblin or a strong elf you invest in STR, if you want to play a smart elf or a smart gnome you invest in INT. If you don't care about these things, then you don't care about race in the current system anyway.
  • Since the system no longer punishes goblin mages and elf fighters, we get more variety and more interesting roleplay.
  • Much less frustration among roleplayers at people repeatedly changing race just to respec their stats.
So let's just remove racial stat modifiers. Nothing is lost in the game, and so much is gained.

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gorboth
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Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Post by gorboth » 21 Jun 2013 04:16

Recoba wrote:
Creed wrote:It cannot be right that some races are only good at some things.
Personally I think that all races should function decently in all types of gameplay.

Races are, to me, mostly an RP issue..
And as such, it should be possible to play a gobbo caster and be almost as effective as an elven caster.
Or the other way around, with them being fighters.

I agree that there should be differences, but nowhere as big as now.
I think it would be a great idea to completely remove the race stat modifiers. It solves so many problems.

Reasons:
  • The problem of race imbalance disappears *poof*
  • There is still a choice of stats to be made through meditation, so no element of choice is lost in the game.
  • Genesis is a game where abilities come from guilds. So if races have special abilities, they should come through racial guilds. And their power should be on that level as well.
  • The stat modifiers don't even make sense in a multi-domain MUD. The domains in Genesis represent very varying fantasy worlds. A Dragonlance elf might be physically weaker than humans, but a Tolkien elf certainly isn't. Same issues for goblins and hobbits and dwarves of course.
  • The races still have lots of character, though appearance, speech, racial guilds etc.
  • If you want to roleplay a strong goblin or a strong elf you invest in STR, if you want to play a smart elf or a smart gnome you invest in INT. If you don't care about these things, then you don't care about race in the current system anyway.
  • Since the system no longer punishes goblin mages and elf fighters, we get more variety and more interesting roleplay.
  • Much less frustration among roleplayers at people repeatedly changing race just to respec their stats.
So let's just remove racial stat modifiers. Nothing is lost in the game, and so much is gained.
This lead me to think of a strange idea. What if, as you said, all racestat modifiers were removed from the central game itself, but were applied via race guilds? The Ogres already do it (and are an occ/race combo) as an example. This would give racial guilds something interesting to add to a players choice considerations, and could allow different domains to feature different varieties of a given race that have different strengths and weaknesses.

Hmmm ...

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1378
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Post by Amberlee » 21 Jun 2013 14:39

Kiara wrote:
amberlee wrote:Oh and by the way I bet a mage gnome or phsusuacchee worshipper elf would beat up any melee goblin of similar mortal size without much trouble?!? So they probably arent THAT weak as you think? Not in the right guild anyway. But as fighters, yes. They are, and should be, weak. I think.

Do we really know that?
We dont really know much about the new magic system though.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

User avatar
Kas
Legend
Posts: 771
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Post by Kas » 21 Jun 2013 17:14

gorboth wrote:
Recoba wrote:
Creed wrote:It cannot be right that some races are only good at some things.
Personally I think that all races should function decently in all types of gameplay.

Races are, to me, mostly an RP issue..
And as such, it should be possible to play a gobbo caster and be almost as effective as an elven caster.
Or the other way around, with them being fighters.

I agree that there should be differences, but nowhere as big as now.
I think it would be a great idea to completely remove the race stat modifiers. It solves so many problems.

Reasons:
  • The problem of race imbalance disappears *poof*
  • There is still a choice of stats to be made through meditation, so no element of choice is lost in the game.
  • Genesis is a game where abilities come from guilds. So if races have special abilities, they should come through racial guilds. And their power should be on that level as well.
  • The stat modifiers don't even make sense in a multi-domain MUD. The domains in Genesis represent very varying fantasy worlds. A Dragonlance elf might be physically weaker than humans, but a Tolkien elf certainly isn't. Same issues for goblins and hobbits and dwarves of course.
  • The races still have lots of character, though appearance, speech, racial guilds etc.
  • If you want to roleplay a strong goblin or a strong elf you invest in STR, if you want to play a smart elf or a smart gnome you invest in INT. If you don't care about these things, then you don't care about race in the current system anyway.
  • Since the system no longer punishes goblin mages and elf fighters, we get more variety and more interesting roleplay.
  • Much less frustration among roleplayers at people repeatedly changing race just to respec their stats.
So let's just remove racial stat modifiers. Nothing is lost in the game, and so much is gained.
This lead me to think of a strange idea. What if, as you said, all racestat modifiers were removed from the central game itself, but were applied via race guilds? The Ogres already do it (and are an occ/race combo) as an example. This would give racial guilds something interesting to add to a players choice considerations, and could allow different domains to feature different varieties of a given race that have different strengths and weaknesses.

Hmmm ...

G.

I admit I like this idea, and you have a new shot at 'reset and tailor' each race properly and in a balanced fasion.

What about even out the stats and replace with racial abilities?
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Rincon
Great Adventurer
Posts: 173
Joined: 04 Jun 2010 23:37

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Post by Rincon » 23 Jun 2013 20:40

What if, as you said, all racestat modifiers were removed from the central game itself, but were applied via race guilds?
Why not? But then again not everyone is in a racial guild.

I think that those modifiers should have much less impact on stats. Similar to e.g. the strength spell or maybe slightly bigger. And like someone said before, maybe different races should have different perks/skills (short lasting infravision, short str boost, etc.)

Celephias
Expert
Posts: 255
Joined: 19 Oct 2010 19:23

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Post by Celephias » 02 Aug 2013 17:59

I like the idea of the racestat modifiers. As I participate more in the magic recode, I definitely see the value in some of the racial modifiers as well for spellcasters. Much of the game has seen the same with respect to melee types. I think that certain races may excel in certain ways is reasonable, but perhaps the issue is better served by raising the impact of other stats where these 'uber' types are deficient. it can impact them in more meaningful ways. This has two effects - one, it balances a strength with a weakness, and two it would require a stat investment away from other primary stat to compensate for the weakness.

Let's prototype a little bit:

For a fighter type - str, dex, con. Why isn't dis more important? Perhaps relatively low dis should make you more tentative in a fight (less attacks, less active defense). If you're not confident and cowering it should show in your fighting. Its likely int and wis aren't really factored in here much directly except in specific instances (like fleeing terel trolls for example).

For a spellcaster - int, wis, con. Without defensive skills, i am not sure a high dex will help much. Strength will determine how much you can wear and carry. Dis should affect the ability to work under pressure (increased failures, etc).

I think the game punishes physical shortcomings more readily than mental ones. Over time, we could balance that out (being too dumb or unwise to achieve a result). Any tests that compare relative values would also put people who ramp up a few stats way over others at a disadvantage if the game wanted to go in that direction.

I always saw the stat bonuses as giving up some X to get more Y. That the total exceeds the base (human) would be unreasonable/unfair IMHO.

Manglor
Rising Hero
Posts: 322
Joined: 16 Sep 2013 17:30
Location: Dieppe, NB, Canada

Re: Racestat modifiers, 'ere we go again!

Post by Manglor » 23 Sep 2013 18:21

Not to beat a dead horse, but there are some really good points here.

One thing that always bugged me, like Celly just said, is the lack of importance of mentals in melee. Goblins are strong and tough, but cowardly and dumb as a brick. Maybe this affects their time between attacks? Maybe they have a harder time hitting their opponents? Specials are slower to execute as they have to think about it a lot?

Same can be said for weaker opponents with high mentals. Hit a lot, but with strength penalties, they do reduced damage per hit.

Strong, tough, high mentals but shitty dex (i.e. Manglor)? Kind of a mix between the two.

I know real life doesn't equate to Genesis, but it should be a somewhat realistic representation thereof.

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