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Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison 
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Expert
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Joined: 04 Nov 2013 20:26
Posts: 296
My problems with logs, generally speaking, come from the facts that:

1. They don't really add anything.
2. They can easily be faked.

For one:

All that logs add is a specific account of every ability used and an exact play by play of health during the fight. Players could easily relay this through an RP account of the events, and the end result is the same whether you see the specifically ability or it is described to you - one player died, one lived. No outcome is changed by you seeing the log.

For two:

Let's say I put in the fifteen minutes or so to take out a weapon and see how the hits look with a friend. It's pretty easy at that point to fake a log based on the items that you see a different character wearing/wielding on a certain day simply by find/replacing parts from the log of you fighting your friend. Further, if you want to get real crafty, you can throw in a received 'ffinger' emote and some fake RP speech, and bam, you've got a log to mail and say "Celephias attacked me for no reason!" What recourse does he have at that point? I have a log and he doesn't. And will the AOP step in on this, which is really just super-rp craftiness? If they did, I'd be pretty upset considering the more legit issues that are often ignored.

Putting all your trust in logs doesn't somehow give you magical protection.

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Zhar wrote:
"Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."


10 Jan 2014 20:20
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Expert

Joined: 19 Oct 2010 19:23
Posts: 255
Recoba wrote:
I understand your reasons, but think of it this way:

You want a log because it represents the "true version of events", sort of like a surveillance camera reel, thus removing the chance of lies or filtered information. What you are doing here is trying to remove the in-character situation of having to decide whether to trust your reports or not. Also trying of course to remove the possibility for your minions to lie to you. That is anti-roleplaying.

Also, if someone still wants to lie to you, they have to simulate this lie in-game by faking a log, instead of actually playing out a conversation with you. That's also anti-roleplaying.

I suppose you have decided to sacrifice roleplaying for the purpose of protecting your interests in the OOC metagame of whining about guild abilities and behavior. Well, that's a decision you make. But it's not a roleplaying-friendly decision, and it's not the only way (even though you may feel that it is).


I think this is well thought out and rational - I believe we generally understand each other. I am not sure I see the tradeoff as cut and dried as sacrificing RP for the sake of the log. Its not about trust per se - if we don't trust them, we can just boot them. if someone is inclined to lie, they can also 'forget' the log or somesuch and certainly have many, many occasions to lie.

So, the log is more about the OOC metagame (at least for for me). This problem can also be simply solved:
- Assume the wizzes and admin have done the hard work on balance (which I believe, so we don't need to defend ourselves to them)
- Give no credence to the whiners (which I am more inclined to do seeing as how whining != dialog)

All of that being said, I am intrigued by the "other ways" you allude to. Even if you care to share via PM, I am interested i getting that perspective.


10 Jan 2014 20:54
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Expert

Joined: 04 Mar 2010 05:37
Posts: 286
Location: Winterpeg
I, personally, start a log everytime I login and end it when I log out.

This is done for two main reasons.

1. I have a history of my character, what I've done, where I've been, who was online at certain times, etc.. It allows for me to reminisce about times gone by.

2. So I have a record of everything that has happened to me throughout my time in Genesis. This is not for the historical purposes but for instances when I get bugged or I find something not right or I am attacked.

The way I "roleplay" these logs is by calling them recollection. I have a eidetic memory. I can recall exactly what occurred at any given point in time.

That said, while I do agree it is possible to change a log to be a lie, I do feel that they are necessary for particular purposes as they are what is right now the "gold standard" of proof. If I am bugged and I die and I want a restore I need a log to prove it. If I am attacked for no reason and I complain to council or some such, I must prove it with a log (even a log often isn't enough and they just say I don't care).

I think it would be really interesting to move away from providing logs. This would bring more to the general character of the person. Someone might say "Well, I know Windemere and there is no way he would ever lie about something like this" in which case my character and how I have carried myself with interactions and throughout the realms would be my "log" so to speak. Where as if I am notorious for making stuff up and trying to get what is best for me then I am much less likely to be believed when I call foul. Something I would then have to live with and try to change through my actions.

Either way, I will never stop logging what I do in the realms. I love having the history as well as the logs just "in case". If we do go the way that logs are no longer required and it will be personal reputation, i'd be just as happy with that. I'm quite the trustworthy kender with no past practice of embellishments or story-telling. And that is the truth!

Windemere


10 Jan 2014 21:22
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Wanderer

Joined: 04 Mar 2010 16:03
Posts: 52
My suggestion in the linked thread was meant as an in-character way to share logs.

https://www.genesismud.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2543

Sadly I think that suggestion thread got derailed by discussing too complicated ways to implement it. It doesn't have to be more complicated than re-using code to edit mails or notes on boards.

/M


11 Jan 2014 21:42
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Champion

Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20
Posts: 610
mumon wrote:
My suggestion in the linked thread was meant as an in-character way to share logs.

https://www.genesismud.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2543

Sadly I think that suggestion thread got derailed by discussing too complicated ways to implement it. It doesn't have to be more complicated than re-using code to edit mails or notes on boards.

/M


The easy way has never been the genesis way.:) For good and for worse. I liked that idea though.


12 Jan 2014 03:19
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