Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

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Amorana
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Re: Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

Post by Amorana » 27 Nov 2013 16:00

Kas wrote:People who aid, motivate and participate in this event do it entirely in character, right?
If that question was directed at me, I think for the most part - yeah, a bit.

There's just one "side effect" if you will, that has been bugging me, in which I'm being asked multiple times per login by individuals participating to use a guild ability (albeit a small and relatively unimportant one, nothing "earth shattering oh my God someone could kill us if they knew this") that truthfully they shouldn't have knowledge of. How they got the knowledge, I don't know, but my character has never used it in front of them, and it all just seems a bit ooc. That's the type of thing that bugs me a lot in game. I don't care if "everyone" knows every guild ability, in an RP environment, if you haven't experienced it you shouldn't know or ask. But apparently that type of attitude makes me some sort of an asshole because I'd like to actually stick to those standards.

By the way Jhael, I can say that at least two on your list I don't know, and there are probably 8-10 other guilds in game that I have no or very limited first hand knowledge of specials/spells wise as a player. So to answer your question, I think revealing any guild ability is wrong, personally, as there are people like myself and also legitimate newbies who don't have that knowledge. Let people experience the game, don't ruin it by revealing guild specials/spells/abilities outside of an in character context. It's one thing if you are at war and I am you ally, and you say to me "we should be careful, as I have experienced this x foul magic first hand, and have found that this armour can help, blah blah blah". It's different to post an exact log of it.

I guess I'd just like to see a different standard of RP in the game. Christ, I remember being reamed out by Lysander as a newbie for asking if we could fight the individual wearing the AMC, because he was good and she was a ranger. That's the type of RP I miss, and I think Jhael, or Arcon, or Windemere, or Hektor, or anyone going will tell you that I typically strive for. Nowadays people don't even bat an eye at logs on a Sparkle board, and I get reamed for saying it's poor (or non-existent) RP.

I get that some things happen OOC. I have OOC conversations myself sometimes. It's a part of interacting with people on an online game. I also think there's a time and a place for everything.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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gorboth
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Re: Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

Post by gorboth » 27 Nov 2013 16:07

Amorana,

I so wish we could return to the standards you remember so fondly. I remember them fondly, too. We've drifted far from this. What do you suspect it would take to get us back? Enforcement by wizards? We hardly have enough wizards to get any work done with regard to code, let alone try to monitor and moderate all the boards in the game and an official forum with many very active threads. We'd need a full time wiz just for that task, and it would be about the most dreadful job I can imagine.

Cultural shifts take time, and are difficult to engineer. I think perhaps the best thing is examples like the one you are setting by sticking to your standards and sharing them, fervently, with others. Bravo. :-)

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

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Amorana
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Re: Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

Post by Amorana » 27 Nov 2013 16:14

gorboth wrote:Amorana,

I so wish we could return to the standards you remember so fondly. I remember them fondly, too. We've drifted far from this. What do you suspect it would take to get us back? Enforcement by wizards? We hardly have enough wizards to get any work done with regard to code, let alone try to monitor and moderate all the boards in the game and an official forum with many very active threads. We'd need a full time wiz just for that task, and it would be about the most dreadful job I can imagine.

Cultural shifts take time, and are difficult to engineer. I think perhaps the best thing is examples like the one you are setting by sticking to your standards and sharing them, fervently, with others. Bravo. :-)

G.

I think a good start would be to have an official policy. It wouldn't have to be highly enforced (I don't think I'd ever want to see people banned/suspended/killed/otherwise punished beyond "hey, that's not cool, knock it off" for simple infractions). But since everyone keeps saying "where is the rule against sharing logs? what rule says I have to be in character?" etc, I personally feel it would be a good start for there to be something in game that says something as simple as:

"Genesis is a MUD, which stands for Multi User Dungeon. As such, we strive to promote roleplay, in the spirit of ye olde table top games. Meta-gaming and sharing player-side information (i.e. what you see as a user as opposed to what your character sees) is frowned upon."
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Arcon

Re: Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

Post by Arcon » 27 Nov 2013 16:20

gorboth wrote:Amorana,

I so wish we could return to the standards you remember so fondly. I remember them fondly, too. We've drifted far from this. What do you suspect it would take to get us back? Enforcement by wizards? We hardly have enough wizards to get any work done with regard to code, let alone try to monitor and moderate all the boards in the game and an official forum with many very active threads. We'd need a full time wiz just for that task, and it would be about the most dreadful job I can imagine.

Cultural shifts take time, and are difficult to engineer. I think perhaps the best thing is examples like the one you are setting by sticking to your standards and sharing them, fervently, with others. Bravo. :-)

G.

I think that one way, maybe the best and fastest way, would be if the guild leaders would raise the rp-bar for joining the guilds(which should be taken a lot more seriously) AND put pressure on its members to keep that standard and use small punishments if people don't.
But this will only work if the leaders actually cared about their guild and it's reputation.

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Re: Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

Post by Jhael » 27 Nov 2013 16:24

I think I understand your issue with sharing logs a little better now. It seems like it's not actually the act of 'sharing' that bugs you, it's the fact that people use that information to metagame.
Amorana wrote:There's just one "side effect" if you will, that has been bugging me, in which I'm being asked multiple times per login by individuals participating to use a guild ability (albeit a small and relatively unimportant one, nothing "earth shattering oh my God someone could kill us if they knew this") that truthfully they shouldn't have knowledge of. How they got the knowledge, I don't know, but my character has never used it in front of them, and it all just seems a bit ooc. That's the type of thing that bugs me a lot in game. I don't care if "everyone" knows every guild ability, in an RP environment, if you haven't experienced it you shouldn't know or ask. But apparently that type of attitude makes me some sort of an asshole because I'd like to actually stick to those standards.
This is pretty (read: incredibly) poor RP. Back in the day, when I was a newbie and thought that if I got poisoned I'd die, a friend told me that a few guilds could heal poisons. I remember walking around hoping that I'd bump into one so I could try to get a heal out of them. But I guess that's the difference, I knew my character a) wouldn't know the information 2) wasn't actually friendly with any of them members of the aforementioned guilds.
Amorana wrote:By the way Jhael, I can say that at least two on your list I don't know, and there are probably 8-10 other guilds in game that I have no or very limited first hand knowledge of specials/spells wise as a player. So to answer your question, I think revealing any guild ability is wrong, personally, as there are people like myself and also legitimate newbies who don't have that knowledge. Let people experience the game, don't ruin it by revealing guild specials/spells/abilities outside of an in character context. It's one thing if you are at war and I am you ally, and you say to me "we should be careful, as I have experienced this x foul magic first hand, and have found that this armour can help, blah blah blah". It's different to post an exact log of it.
I am impressed by this, almost to the point of disbelief, but I do recognize that it would be stupid to try to argue "Yeah you do!" cuz .... well, it would be. :smile: I suppose I see your point in the difference as well. I think that it fits in this case, though. Kiara created an event to share with the realms what the Mages are capable of. So, the log was in response to that.
Amorana wrote:I guess I'd just like to see a different standard of RP in the game. Christ, I remember being reamed out by Lysander as a newbie for asking if we could fight the individual wearing the AMC, because he was good and she was a ranger. That's the type of RP I miss, and I think Jhael, or Arcon, or Windemere, or Hektor, or anyone going will tell you that I typically strive for. Nowadays people don't even bat an eye at logs on a Sparkle board, and I get reamed for saying it's poor (or non-existent) RP.
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, this is your main issue with the log sharing. It creates an environment where players know too much about things and that knowledge gets passed onto their character. A lot of RP has fallen by the wayside over the years. I think a lot of it has to do with how long a lot of us have been playing. "Oh, me and Amorana have been teaming for the last 10 years, there's not really a need to RP this." is likely too easy a thought to have.

Laurel

Re: Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

Post by Laurel » 27 Nov 2013 16:26

Amorana wrote:I think a good start would be to have an official policy. It wouldn't have to be highly enforced (I don't think I'd ever want to see people banned/suspended/killed/otherwise punished beyond "hey, that's not cool, knock it off" for simple infractions). But since everyone keeps saying "where is the rule against sharing logs? what rule says I have to be in character?" etc, I personally feel it would be a good start for there to be something in game that says something as simple as:

"Genesis is a MUD, which stands for Multi User Dungeon. As such, we strive to promote roleplay, in the spirit of ye olde table top games. Meta-gaming and sharing player-side information (i.e. what you see as a user as opposed to what your character sees) is frowned upon."
actually what you describe as current is what I usually refer to as polish approach to law - if it's not prohibited word for word ... it's allowed
as opposed to the UK approach, where you need to follow the letter AND spirit of the law

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Re: Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

Post by Chanele » 27 Nov 2013 16:42

There are four pages of logs revealing this and that. This time it is a magic caster guild who gets abilities exposed and that seem to make you particular upset Amorana. So...what's your agenda?

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Amorana
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Re: Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

Post by Amorana » 27 Nov 2013 17:19

Chanele wrote:There are four pages of logs revealing this and that. This time it is a magic caster guild who gets abilities exposed and that seem to make you particular upset Amorana. So...what's your agenda?
Well, given that my account was created 23 days ago, I'd say that's a good reason why I haven't commented on such before.

But just to make it clear, why don't I reiterate my point and specifically highlight the point that you are choosing to skip:
Amorana wrote:So to answer your question, I think revealing any guild ability is wrong, personally, as there are people like myself and also legitimate newbies who don't have that knowledge. Let people experience the game, don't ruin it by revealing guild specials/spells/abilities outside of an in character context. It's one thing if you are at war and I am you ally, and you say to me "we should be careful, as I have experienced this x foul magic first hand, and have found that this armour can help, blah blah blah". It's different to post an exact log of it.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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Re: Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

Post by Celephias » 27 Nov 2013 17:31

The log thing is bush league for sure, I see it more like Laurel mentioned - documented as an asset for the guild. Shared with key allies. Treated like a true asset, not gossip in the tavern. But whatever, times are different now. I'm don't think it should be punishable or anything - its not like the spellcasting was done in private. But it is weak RP IMHO - like a high school kid spreading information about a rival to anyone who will listen by scribbling it on the bathroom walls.

I have attacked 2 players since returning to Gen a few years ago. One was to repulse Hektor and team's aggressions (as an aside - he's got RP game is a great enemy) in Ithilien. The second was with the King on orders from the King. The only way we pfight is on direct orders, if attacked, or if someone is killing friendlies in Ithilien. You can argue whether or not you agree with the orders or the NPC protection, but the parameters are very clear.

I come across a lot of players in the realms. More often than not, I just go about my business. They aren't carrying the One Ring and aren't bothering/impeding me, so why would I bother with them? So long as they don't try and screw with me, I leave them be. Pretty consistent.

As for this shoddily RP'ed event, in the spirit of 'whack a mole' Kiara has raised her hand and it wouldn't surprise me to see bullseye painted on her which should persist ad inifinitum. It won't really be a hardship because she will just switch to a second, but given her attitude and intentions toward the tower I would expect that she should be killed and harassed on sight. This is exactly what she is trying to do to mages after all, so why not reciprocate? I'm not the King though, so as far I know, no such order exists. So, even if I were to see the 'I need to avenge my GA death when I was in your city unauthorized' kender, I wouldn't attack. Unless of course there is such an order....

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Re: Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison

Post by Kiara » 27 Nov 2013 18:58

Heh. Well. Honestly I think you all should focus more on your own RP and how you play the game, than completely attack me and call me the worst RP'er ever and so on. For posting two logs. Thats what I did. Thats my terrible RP crime. None of you has had any real encounter with me in game so you have no idea how I RP. Actually I try to RP more than most, try to play the role of a kender as best I can, and never talk about OOC things. And two logs later, I am the worst RP'er ever? I think you are all being VERY hard. We're talking about two logs on a board, and now I am come type of criminal...

You know, I posted info about the event weeks ago. Stating that to collect prizes you needed to post LOGS. Did anyone say anything then? Nope. Did people cheer me on? Yes. Even mages. You KNEW this was gonna happen and dont you think it would have been better to voice your concerns then? I mean it was no secret.

And about your little ability Amorana, why do you think Kiara could not have learned about that in game? Is the so completely impossible? For your information, I did NOT know of it from any source except KIARA who gained that info completely ingame with RP. It feels like you have decided to dislike me strongly and grab at anything you can to make me look bad. You make assumptions about things now, stick to facts if you're going to critize. Making up things only makes you look bad. And YOU insulted ME all over the place yesterday for no reason except I disagreed with your opinions. I never attacked your person in any way until you went crazy on me... but you twisted that around too it seems...

But this whole idea of pretending you dont know things in character is to me ridiculous. Where do you draw the line? If I make a new character I am supposed to pretend like I dont know anything. Forget all quests, all info I ever gained with another character or for simply playing the game for many years? I am supposed to ask people about anything and pretend to re-learn things. If I join the gladiators I am supposed to have no idea about their abilities and ask people how to use them? I mean come on... Who in their right mind can keep track of where and how they learned things over many years. Sure its nice if you do your best to RP just a little, but really, lots of people are completely open with all their characters both in and out of the game, talk more about what to watch on TV, about youtube clips, speak in their own language most of the time, and so on. And me posting two logs is suddenly terrible RP. I mean come on. It feels like I am currently getting the blame for everything of the above for posting logs. Things that everyone loves to read and secretly mail around between themselves.

People have always used logs to record fights. In game. Some may call it "transcripts" or something else RP-related. But its the same thing. Pure logs they use to gain info about what happened in a fight. Or simply to bra. Or complain. I bet even Scops mail logs around during any encounter with mages? Isnt that breaking RP and "metagame" or whatever fancy word you used? I posted mine on the board. That makes me a worse RP-er? Why? Because i RP'ed badly infront of 50 people instead of just 10? I really dont understand your point at all.

If you say any mention of a log is bad RP, then you're all meaning completely I assume? No logs on guild boards, in mails. No nothing. Anyone ever mentioning it is bad RP and in such high standard RP guilds like Scop and MMs want to be I assume any person who ever shares a log will be punished, and eventually kicked for lack or RP?

Or what are you saying?

Focus on your own play instead and try to have fun? You honestly think you can by force, complaints, and insults change the way other people play?
Last edited by Kiara on 27 Nov 2013 19:03, edited 1 time in total.

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