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Second, deadly, encounter with Morrison 
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Legend
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54
Posts: 771
I assume if logs were to be disregarded as a means to document an event ingame, it means you can't use logs to prove anything to convince the character about the validity of some action/claim ingame.

So you are left with whatever accusation/claim/speculation you can compose ingame with no need to provide any log.

I wouldn't mind if this was the goldstandard of Genesis(as it could potentially trigger some interesting ingame dilemmas/conflicts/dramas if the parties had the integrity to play it through), but it isn't.


So someone send a mail to the Nine, making a claim that a mage killed someone, and using a log as proof. The response of the Nine would then probably be to totally ignore the log (since it's invalid), and measure only the validity of the claim. Needless to say, some insignificant maggot making anecdotes about one of His trusted servants may not hold much weight...(while the log rests in the trashbin) ;)

Also, if some immortal investigates the case using the log as evidence, we _have to break character_ to actually take it into consideration if the basic claim is inadequate in its form and presentation.

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Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!


08 Jan 2014 22:43
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Joined: 19 Oct 2010 19:23
Posts: 255
Draugor wrote:
Celephias wrote:
This is silly. The mages are under fire outside the game (like these forums) moreso than in game.



So you saying no mage has flamed anyone involved in this crap outside of the game? :P None whatsoever? Might even be that atleast one of them has even quite agressively "protested"? And yes I am speaking about mages, the "masters of RP" :P


You clearly didn't read the conversation. Try again.


08 Jan 2014 22:56
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Titan

Joined: 04 Mar 2010 12:39
Posts: 510
Quote:
The mages are under fire outside the game (like these forums) moreso than in game.


Celephias, Do you have an idea , or any guess, why Mages are more often "under fire" outside of the game, than any other guild?


08 Jan 2014 23:09
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Myth

Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14
Posts: 1679
Celephias wrote:
Draugor wrote:
Celephias wrote:
This is silly. The mages are under fire outside the game (like these forums) moreso than in game.



So you saying no mage has flamed anyone involved in this crap outside of the game? :P None whatsoever? Might even be that atleast one of them has even quite agressively "protested"? And yes I am speaking about mages, the "masters of RP" :P


You clearly didn't read the conversation. Try again.



This is more to your complain about taking fire outside of the game than the conversation :P Or atleast my post was.


09 Jan 2014 07:17
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Location: Some old coffin
Irrelevant post removed and the one that asked for the removal. Lets stay on topic, thanks.

G.

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10 Jan 2014 16:10
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Joined: 26 Sep 2011 05:33
Posts: 133
Chanele wrote:
Quote:
The mages are under fire outside the game (like these forums) moreso than in game.


Celephias, Do you have an idea , or any guess, why Mages are more often "under fire" outside of the game, than any other guild?

I would be curious to hear a Mages opinion on this point. I have a few thoughts, but I'd like to hear what you (Mages) think. I really am just curious, I don't have an agenda for your answer. Granted, I can't speak for everyone else.


10 Jan 2014 16:15
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Great Adventurer
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Joined: 11 Mar 2010 12:52
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Celephias wrote:
Recoba wrote:
Celephias wrote:

We require a log of all pfights because we know that pissing and moaning usually follows and we will need to defend ourselves in some way. We also want to know if the mage was in the wrong somehow. Obviously, in char, we don't care who complains, but as players we have to cover our bases. We don't post them. Anywhere.


If you seriously require your guild members to send game logs instead of or in addition to written reports about events, then you are not even trying to be a roleplaying guild.

And I agree 100% with Gorboth on the need for more roleplaying in Genesis.


This is silly. The mages are under fire outside the game (like these forums) moreso than in game. We have to account for what happens as much ooc as ic, so yes, I want logs because I want to know if our guy was in the right or wrong and acted appropriately for the witch hunt that will happen out of game or any pending action or questions from the admin.


I understand your reasons, but think of it this way:

You want a log because it represents the "true version of events", sort of like a surveillance camera reel, thus removing the chance of lies or filtered information. What you are doing here is trying to remove the in-character situation of having to decide whether to trust your reports or not. Also trying of course to remove the possibility for your minions to lie to you. That is anti-roleplaying.

Also, if someone still wants to lie to you, they have to simulate this lie in-game by faking a log, instead of actually playing out a conversation with you. That's also anti-roleplaying.

I suppose you have decided to sacrifice roleplaying for the purpose of protecting your interests in the OOC metagame of whining about guild abilities and behavior. Well, that's a decision you make. But it's not a roleplaying-friendly decision, and it's not the only way (even though you may feel that it is).


10 Jan 2014 17:28
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Legend
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54
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Well, the 'ooc metagame of whining' is pretty much the gold standard today, so I assume it's nice to have a log to check both sides of some event discussed out of the game.

Meanwhile, I assume we don't need to take the log into account at all and rather rest entirely upon the claims made ingame and how they are substantiated, events that definitely would put the throneroom to more use. ;)

Though, it's boring if only One party respect this and not the other...

_________________
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!


10 Jan 2014 19:24
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Joined: 26 Sep 2011 05:33
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Recoba wrote:
I understand your reasons, but think of it this way:

You want a log because it represents the "true version of events", sort of like a surveillance camera reel, thus removing the chance of lies or filtered information. What you are doing here is trying to remove the in-character situation of having to decide whether to trust your reports or not. Also trying of course to remove the possibility for your minions to lie to you. That is anti-roleplaying.

Also, if someone still wants to lie to you, they have to simulate this lie in-game by faking a log, instead of actually playing out a conversation with you. That's also anti-roleplaying.

I suppose you have decided to sacrifice roleplaying for the purpose of protecting your interests in the OOC metagame of whining about guild abilities and behavior. Well, that's a decision you make. But it's not a roleplaying-friendly decision, and it's not the only way (even though you may feel that it is).
It sounds like you're an idealist, which I do not think is a bad thing. However, if I understand the discussion correctly, I think it's better to approach this topic with a realist viewpoint.

Consider this: People break character "all the time" because things happen outside of the game that are outside of the players control. We try to cover this with things like "In thoughts a moment" or "I need to be inattentive for a bit." or even "afk". Generally, this is accepted as 'okay'.

In a game like Genesis, there must be situations where character is broken, and this is because it is a game and not actual life. So, to my mind, logs fall into the category of 'necessary evil'. Guild councils need logs, and (I think) you don't want these logs to be doctored up into RP language (see Kiara's logs for example) because you would like to see as little player modification of the events as possible. The more the player modifies things, the less likely it is that you can assume that the log is true to the events that occurred. In my opinion, I'd even want to see all the player input and responses. RP-wise, no that doesn't make sense, but the more valid the log looks, the more basis I have for enforcing whatever decision I need to enforce. Sure it doesn't make sense for my character to read 'h all', or 'say You will die fool. You say: You will die fool.', because what is that? But, as a player who was not there and needs to make some kind of ruling on the situation, I can see what occurred in real time. I can then transfer this player knowledge into character knowledge the same way we translate "In thoughts a moment" to 'Jhael's player is no longer looking at the screen'.

Ideally, however, of course we'd like to see everything in Genesis roleplayed. Especially when it comes to heavy rp required guilds.


10 Jan 2014 19:49
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Joined: 26 Sep 2011 05:33
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Jhael wrote:
Recoba wrote:
I understand your reasons, but think of it this way:

You want a log because it represents the "true version of events", sort of like a surveillance camera reel, thus removing the chance of lies or filtered information. What you are doing here is trying to remove the in-character situation of having to decide whether to trust your reports or not. Also trying of course to remove the possibility for your minions to lie to you. That is anti-roleplaying.

Also, if someone still wants to lie to you, they have to simulate this lie in-game by faking a log, instead of actually playing out a conversation with you. That's also anti-roleplaying.

I suppose you have decided to sacrifice roleplaying for the purpose of protecting your interests in the OOC metagame of whining about guild abilities and behavior. Well, that's a decision you make. But it's not a roleplaying-friendly decision, and it's not the only way (even though you may feel that it is).
It sounds like you're an idealist, which I do not think is a bad thing. However, if I understand the discussion correctly, I think it's better to approach this topic with a realist viewpoint.

Consider this: People break character "all the time" because things happen outside of the game that are outside of the players control. We try to cover this with things like "In thoughts a moment" or "I need to be inattentive for a bit." or even "afk". Generally, this is accepted as 'okay'.

In a game like Genesis, there must be situations where character is broken, and this is because it is a game and not actual life. So, to my mind, logs fall into the category of 'necessary evil'. Guild councils need logs, and (I think) you don't want these logs to be doctored up into RP language (see Kiara's logs for example) because you would like to see as little player modification of the events as possible. The more the player modifies things, the less likely it is that you can assume that the log is true to the events that occurred. In my opinion, I'd even want to see all the player input and responses. RP-wise, no that doesn't make sense, but the more valid the log looks, the more basis I have for enforcing whatever decision I need to enforce. Sure it doesn't make sense for my character to read 'h all', or 'say You will die fool. You say: You will die fool.', because what is that? But, as a player who was not there and needs to make some kind of ruling on the situation, I can see what occurred in real time. I can then transfer this player knowledge into character knowledge the same way we translate "In thoughts a moment" to 'Jhael's player is no longer looking at the screen'.

Ideally, however, of course we'd like to see everything in Genesis roleplayed. Especially when it comes to heavy rp required guilds.

After some further thought, I would like to add something.

I don't think logs should be the end all, by any means. But I don't think there's any particular reason to 'hate on them' as much as some people do. In the case of a player fight, each guild council is going to be interested in the events leading to the moment of attack ... less so about the events of the fight. They are both going to want to find justification or otherwise for the event. A log is simply another tool that can be used to accomplish this goal. Logs are also quicker, and that's why I think they have some value. Copy/paste into a mail 2 minutes after the fight allows for less alterations to make the other side seem in the wrong. Obviously it's still fake-able, though, and that's why I don't think they should be considered law.


10 Jan 2014 20:13
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