About Quest XP

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Arman
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Arman » 23 May 2020 06:35

Thalric wrote:
22 May 2020 17:33
Arman wrote:
22 May 2020 16:14
I think you are confusing understandable with fair. It is very understandable how it happened.

With the QEXP cap, the more quests that get introduced reduces the importance of MT as a necessary quest hub. The solution is simply there needs to be more quests so that you don't need to rely on one quest hub to hit the cap. I don't see evil players struggling to hit the QEXP cap. And I personally don't think it is necessary for MT to change its entry rules.
Reaching the QXP cap?
I am not sure you know how hard that is...
From what I know, only very old characters with old quests, and players who were made in a time where the qxp multiplier (for whatever lame reason) was increased, has reached the QCP cap.

My main character is nearly 23 years old, has participated in and won several events as well as solved every single quest available... and yet he has not reached the QXP cap.
He is still at: As an explorer, you have done countless legendary feats.

So I would believe that the cap is unachievable for most people.
Unless you change the multiplier again, at which I would also like to have ALL my quest done changed to match that increased multiplier.
You may be right. My primary playing character I haven't played in a long time. Decades. He is one of the old 90s characters who is on the edge of the QXP cap and has not done the Minas Tirith quests.

Anyway, I still think the solution is to make the MT quests redundant. More diverse, interesting, and rewarding quests so that total possible quest xp greatly exceeds the cap. Means players don't have to do the quests they hate doing, and also means on replay with alts they can have a bit of variety of experiences if they wish.

Amberlee
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Amberlee » 23 May 2020 08:54

Well Arman.
That was from an era when QEXP modifiers were.. modified depending on who you knew.
The golden era of Cheato(Shinto) and his crew and people walked around with more QEXP than was possible to get in Genesis.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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cotillion
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by cotillion » 23 May 2020 09:39

Amberlee wrote:
23 May 2020 08:54
Well Arman.
That was from an era when QEXP modifiers were.. modified depending on who you knew.
The golden era of Cheato(Shinto) and his crew and people walked around with more QEXP than was possible to get in Genesis.
Lets not pretend these games are still not played.
There is a reason people are requesting restoration of characters from 2000 and before.

Quest exp based brutality should be removed. I think there is pretty broad agreement on that but noone has done the calculations on the replacement system yet.

Amberlee
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Amberlee » 23 May 2020 12:14

cotillion wrote:
23 May 2020 09:39
Amberlee wrote:
23 May 2020 08:54
Well Arman.
That was from an era when QEXP modifiers were.. modified depending on who you knew.
The golden era of Cheato(Shinto) and his crew and people walked around with more QEXP than was possible to get in Genesis.
Lets not pretend these games are still not played.
There is a reason people are requesting restoration of characters from 2000 and before.

Quest exp based brutality should be removed. I think there is pretty broad agreement on that but noone has done the calculations on the replacement system yet.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Quest XP based brutality is hugely flawed and personally I would like to see it gone too.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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nils
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by nils » 23 May 2020 12:23

cotillion wrote:
23 May 2020 09:39
Quest exp based brutality should be removed. I think there is pretty broad agreement on that but noone has done the calculations on the replacement system yet.
Well, I f'ing disagree. I think what you're proposing is as short sighted, dumbfounded and ill-advised as the 'foreversave'-farce.

That system is what makes Genesis what it is. You're threatening the very core of the game, where in order to be truly successful it's not enough to grind like a madman, you actually have to solve a couple problems, apply yourself and visit/learn otherwise desolate domains.

Is it so long since we were nubs that we forgot how damn difficult this game is, and how crazy gratifying it is to stand victorious on the other side? Has mastering this epic game become so mundane that we scoff at the very reason we returned over and over, or didn't quit when we died for the n'th time?

That's a lot of words for how lost for words I am.

Shame!
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

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Zhar
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Zhar » 23 May 2020 14:41

nils wrote:
23 May 2020 12:23
cotillion wrote:
23 May 2020 09:39
Quest exp based brutality should be removed. I think there is pretty broad agreement on that but noone has done the calculations on the replacement system yet.
Well, I f'ing disagree. I think what you're proposing is as short sighted, dumbfounded and ill-advised as the 'foreversave'-farce.

That system is what makes Genesis what it is. You're threatening the very core of the game, where in order to be truly successful it's not enough to grind like a madman, you actually have to solve a couple problems, apply yourself and visit/learn otherwise desolate domains.

Is it so long since we were nubs that we forgot how damn difficult this game is, and how crazy gratifying it is to stand victorious on the other side? Has mastering this epic game become so mundane that we scoff at the very reason we returned over and over, or didn't quit when we died for the n'th time?

That's a lot of words for how lost for words I am.

Shame!
I think the basic idea behind this is that we remove qexp/brutality relation but make quests relevant in other ways so that if you want to be at the very top of the game you'll still have to do them (but you're not forced to if you'd like to be a scrub forever).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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cotillion
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by cotillion » 23 May 2020 14:44

nils wrote:
23 May 2020 12:23
cotillion wrote:
23 May 2020 09:39
Quest exp based brutality should be removed. I think there is pretty broad agreement on that but noone has done the calculations on the replacement system yet.
Well, I f'ing disagree. I think what you're proposing is as short sighted, dumbfounded and ill-advised as the 'foreversave'-farce.

That system is what makes Genesis what it is. You're threatening the very core of the game, where in order to be truly successful it's not enough to grind like a madman, you actually have to solve a couple problems, apply yourself and visit/learn otherwise desolate domains.

Is it so long since we were nubs that we forgot how damn difficult this game is, and how crazy gratifying it is to stand victorious on the other side? Has mastering this epic game become so mundane that we scoff at the very reason we returned over and over, or didn't quit when we died for the n'th time?

That's a lot of words for how lost for words I am.

Shame!
I agree that it sucks. But very few wizards want to code quests.
Right now we've almost had to force wizards who want to open new areas to write a few quests.

That's not a good situation. And each time we actually do open a new quest it causes inflation since players grow even faster than before.

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Cherek
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Re: About Quest XP

Post by Cherek » 23 May 2020 16:09

To my knowledge only one player has reached the QXP cap without that "wrong" QXP multiplier or some lots of truly ancient quests, predating the mid 90's (very few players exist today with either). The one player who did it with today's quests and multiplier finished all available quests, did lots of kiosk quests, and finished high in many many events.

Chanele: Yes I also remember Gorboth saying the cap should increase as we add more quests. I guess now it's up to me and the current AoB crew to decide if that's what we're gonna do or not... I am pretty sure the cap remains where it's always been since it was introduced. That of course means that the more quests we add, the easier it will be to reach the cap - unless the cap moves as we add quests.

So, like Arman said, if we add enough new quests, evil/good restrictions wont matter since there will be enough "neutral" quests around to reach the cap anyway. That's one way of solving that once and for all. But then we need wizards actually making some big quests, and like Cotillion said, that's rarely what new wizards strive to make these days. Guilds and grinders are popular in the wiz world right now :)

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Cherek
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Re: About Quest XP

Post by Cherek » 23 May 2020 16:25

About quest XP itself, like Cotillion said, a while ago there was more or less consensus that a prefarable system would be one where brute is not tied to QXP, but rather to size. To make quests useful they would give a lot more XP, so you could basically choose to grow by doing quests or by grinding, or combine both. I liked this idea too.

However, I've given this a lot of thought lately, and I am not sure it really is the best way. It sounds fine in theory, but... perhaps some level of "forcing" players to do something is good too?

Quests are how players are introduced to new areas, it makes people explore all our domains, and see something else than just the best grinding areas. Not to mention, players get to experience a lot of really well-written stories about NPCs and places in Genesis. I fear that making the entire storytelling part of Genesis optional will steer us even more towards a game that's only about one thing - doing a simple task over and over and over again, and whoever does it the most times wins... There are many popular games that work like this, but it would be interesting to see data on how long players on average stay in those games.

Yes, quests can be frustratingly hard and illogical (even with solutions), and sometimes the reward seem insignifficant. I agree, not all our quests are fantastic experiences, but "forcing" people to do them comes with benefits too I think. Not only the ones I decribed above, but also what Nils mentioned - they increase the difficulty level of the game and gives you a bigger sense of achievement if you do manage to get past the challenges.

If the only thing you need to do to grow to myth is watch a script go (or being dragged around) 12 hours a day, does that really make the Genesis experience better?

I think if we "untie" brute from qxp we'll need to find another way to make quests required to some extent. I think there is too much to lose to make them completely optional.

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Cherek
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Cherek » 23 May 2020 16:38

Amberlee wrote:
22 May 2020 19:57
Reason you don't see evil players struggling with it is simple.
We say "Go goodie until you finish Minas Tirith or you are borked!"
No Amberlee, you're exaggerating how much this matters. Most of our big players already MISS more QXP than what you get from doing the Minas Tirith goodie-only quests. Simply because they haven't bothered with doing all quests. Most players are not near the cap, and few players finish all quests, or even close to all quests - and they still grow to myth and beyond.

Sure, being a neutral human is always the best thing you can do when questing, which isn't great game design, but only a fairly small percentage of the available QXP is actually alignment-restricted. Finish the quests you CAN do, and you'll be perfectly fine, regardless of align. But yes, being neutral is best for questing, followed by being good, and evils get the short end of the stick when it comes to quests. And while it's unfair that neutral or evil is better for grinding, it's of course also unfair that good or neutral is better for questing.

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