Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

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finwe
Wizard
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by finwe » 18 May 2020 18:28

Zhar wrote:
18 May 2020 14:37
I think we should add the Elemental Clerics to the good guilds list since it's a requirement for them to be goodaligned.
Thank you for the heads up. I've added the EC to the list.

- Finwe

Tarlok
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Tarlok » 18 May 2020 19:15

What has happened in Middle Earth? Yet again things have shifted. Prior to this Renewal I often took a brief rest in the Rangers welcoming guild hall, or I would stop by Minas Tirith for supplies yet that is no longer possible - even at holy alignment.

I recommend once again removing Warlocks from the list of evil guilds, just as Gorboth did last year. Warlocks are not required to be evil. Certaintly many warlocks are evil, but those who follow Hastur may never have done an 'evil' deed in their lives.

An even better fix would be to change the way admittance works for RoG and MT. I would recommend the guards merely assess admittance based on alignment, no guild check should be performed. Evil guilds require their members to be evil in alignment and this would almost completely keep them out. If an evil soldier has done so many 'good' deeds, likely by slaughtering hundreds of his peers, the good peoples of Middle Earth would be wise to accept him among themselves as he is a valuable ally to their desperate cause. As has been pointed out, becoming a good aligned player in an evil guild is burdensome but it is also risky, an unexpected link issue or logout results in a guild banishment and death for most guilds so its not a walk in the park.

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Dhez
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Dhez » 18 May 2020 20:39

Tarlok wrote:
18 May 2020 19:15
What has happened in Middle Earth? Yet again things have shifted. Prior to this Renewal I often took a brief rest in the Rangers welcoming guild hall, or I would stop by Minas Tirith for supplies yet that is no longer possible - even at holy alignment.

I recommend once again removing Warlocks from the list of evil guilds, just as Gorboth did last year. Warlocks are not required to be evil. Certaintly many warlocks are evil, but those who follow Hastur may never have done an 'evil' deed in their lives.

An even better fix would be to change the way admittance works for RoG and MT. I would recommend the guards merely assess admittance based on alignment, no guild check should be performed. Evil guilds require their members to be evil in alignment and this would almost completely keep them out. If an evil soldier has done so many 'good' deeds, likely by slaughtering hundreds of his peers, the good peoples of Middle Earth would be wise to accept him among themselves as he is a valuable ally to their desperate cause. As has been pointed out, becoming a good aligned player in an evil guild is burdensome but it is also risky, an unexpected link issue or logout results in a guild banishment and death for most guilds so its not a walk in the park.
This.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Dhez
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Dhez » 18 May 2020 20:41

finwe wrote:
18 May 2020 03:21
I checked the gates, and this is what I found. These guilds are allowed in since they are good aligned:

* Calian warrior's guild
* Heralds of the Valar
* Holy Order of the Stars
* Noldor of Imladris
* Rangers of the Westlands
* Solamnian Knights

These evil guilds aren't allowed:
* Angmar Army
* Dragonarmy
* Drow of Underdark
* Fire Knives
* Morgul Mages
* Necromancers Of Vile Darkness
* Orcs of Middle Earth
* Priests of Takhisis
* Red Fang Guild
* Templars of Takhisis
* Warlocks of Faerun

Even though there are good aligned drow in the game, they are still blocked because of their heritage.
Might as well throw in the Thanar, Hiddukel Cabal, Pirates, and the Minotaurs to that evil list and keep this entire city full of quests restricted to only a selected handful of Mary Poppins' singing merry elves and hobbits.

With all due respect this list changes so often (how often have drow and warlocks been added and removed by the wizardly mood of the month?) without any notification and feels so biased and random that it actually makes me want to storm their gates, slit every citizen's throat and burn their city down.

If they see me as an enemy, I'll start behaving like one.

If I'm (as in, my guild) not thematically of Middle Earth, have committed no crimes against rangers and their protected areas, AND I'm good aligned, what kind of argument is there to not let me in? Are goodies really this snobby and judgemental in their 'my way or the highway' stance?
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Amberlee
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Amberlee » 18 May 2020 21:16

What is this stupidity?

Warlocks are neutral, they can be holy or damned.
Same with drow.

And for the heritage of drow, Middle Earth would have no relation to what a drow is.
For them they would be dark skinned elves.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Thalric
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Thalric » 18 May 2020 21:45

No wonder evils have it easier, when this is the usual tantrum thrown whenever something isn't beneficial.

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Dhez
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Dhez » 18 May 2020 21:54

Thalric wrote:
18 May 2020 21:45
No wonder evils have it easier, when this is the usual tantrum thrown whenever something isn't beneficial.
Are we going to call any arguments from the evil end of the moral spectrum a tantrum, but any from the goodie one a reasonable discussion? If we're going to have a chat about any topic then I'd at least expect some sort of logic rather than just random comments based on grudges.

You were arguing before that goodies have it harder to grind, and people agreed. Well, evils have it harder to quest. We can agree on both accounts without slinging insults. They are not contradictory positions.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Arman
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Arman » 19 May 2020 04:20

It is probably more to do with Warlock's reputation of stealing babies that keeps them outside the walls of MT.

Warlocks are not good. They are immoral and dont care for what side of a crusade or faction you stand with, which was the thematic justification for them not being evil. They should not be welcomed in most civil societies with open arms. Their guildhall is hidden in a swamp for good reason. If we had to decide on the point of whether the Warlocks should be unaligned or evil for the purposes of these sort of scenarios then they will be evil.

The only reason they aren't hard coded evil is because, as I've stated before, the alignment system is flawed. But if players are struggling with them conceptually then maybe they should be.

Greneth
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Greneth » 19 May 2020 06:58

Arman wrote:
19 May 2020 04:20
The only reason they aren't hard coded evil is because, as I've stated before, the alignment system is flawed. But if players are struggling with them conceptually then maybe they should be.
Until another system is in place I would +1 this. More people use it as an excuse to get around whatever obstacle they want in-game rather than using it as a RP tool to define their character. They do evil things and then when it is time for a quest its time to toss out the "But I'm Neutral Card".

Speaking from a thematic point as well, it doesnt matter what YOUR guild says you are. You can say evil is just a concept and there is no right and wrong. But to the people of Minas Tirith there is a right and wrong. Middle Earth has a very distinct point of view on good and evil. To ignore their lore in favor of a guilds wishes just seems odd to me. If you and the people you associate with kill babies, hold sacrificial rituals and are around/do a number of things that would most definitely make you evil in Middle Earth then I can only roll my eyes because you can't get in to do a quest.

The same applies to the Drow, in this version of Middle Earth they are connected to many other realms. So no they aren't exactly unknowing about what a dark-skinned elf really is. They can listen and gather information just like anyone else. And the majority of the Drow are not good, thematically evil and those that are good are a minority. The majority of the houses that are in major drow cities are all followers of Lolth who is literally the goddess of evil, amongst other titles. In fact in Lolth-worshipping city states like Menzoberranzan the reign of her priesthood was absolute. So you can't hold a title of Mother of whatever name from Menzoberranzan and claim to be the single irregularity with no repercussions from a goddess who is so jealous over worship she would demolish you and everyone whose spoken to you.

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Dhez
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Dhez » 19 May 2020 09:02

Greneth wrote:
19 May 2020 06:58
Arman wrote:
19 May 2020 04:20
The only reason they aren't hard coded evil is because, as I've stated before, the alignment system is flawed. But if players are struggling with them conceptually then maybe they should be.
Until another system is in place I would +1 this. More people use it as an excuse to get around whatever obstacle they want in-game rather than using it as a RP tool to define their character. They do evil things and then when it is time for a quest its time to toss out the "But I'm Neutral Card".

Speaking from a thematic point as well, it doesnt matter what YOUR guild says you are. You can say evil is just a concept and there is no right and wrong. But to the people of Minas Tirith there is a right and wrong. Middle Earth has a very distinct point of view on good and evil. To ignore their lore in favor of a guilds wishes just seems odd to me. If you and the people you associate with kill babies, hold sacrificial rituals and are around/do a number of things that would most definitely make you evil in Middle Earth then I can only roll my eyes because you can't get in to do a quest.

The same applies to the Drow, in this version of Middle Earth they are connected to many other realms. So no they aren't exactly unknowing about what a dark-skinned elf really is. They can listen and gather information just like anyone else. And the majority of the Drow are not good, thematically evil and those that are good are a minority. The majority of the houses that are in major drow cities are all followers of Lolth who is literally the goddess of evil, amongst other titles. In fact in Lolth-worshipping city states like Menzoberranzan the reign of her priesthood was absolute. So you can't hold a title of Mother of whatever name from Menzoberranzan and claim to be the single irregularity with no repercussions from a goddess who is so jealous over worship she would demolish you and everyone whose spoken to you.
What about the Cabal of Hiddukel and Thanar then? They're evil yet not listed. Should we add them? What's the stance on minotaurs? In krynn, at least to the knights, they're not exactly welcome in places like Kalaman or Vingaard. What's the stance of Minas Tirith?

I'm not disagreeing with your logic, but this system could be a bit more standard and understandable. Just as players pick and choose when to consider themselves neutral or good, the same applies to hard code.

Hiddukel is an evil god by definition. Why aren't thieves evil then?

Let's review the guilds we have in Genesis and define in objective terms what good and evil is, bringing every guild to the same standard.

As it stands, we are too lenient on excuses for neutrality it seems. So let's stop pretending and using well ignored lore as an excuse to claim neutrality, and let's draw hard lines between good and evil, then. Or do you think those information gatherers of minas tirith can judge warlocks to be evil but are entirely clueless of the demon worshipping sybarites or the cult of hiddukel?
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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