Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

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Zhar
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Zhar » 19 May 2020 09:56

How about we hardcode warlocks and drow to be required evil? This would end such discussions once and for all.

Also, adding Cabal of Hiddukel to the evil guilds list is a good idea but you can hide your allegiance with it (you can't hide the fact you're a warlock) so it makes sense that it's not on the list.
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Greneth
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Greneth » 19 May 2020 10:22

Dhez wrote:
19 May 2020 09:02
Greneth wrote:
19 May 2020 06:58
Arman wrote:
19 May 2020 04:20
The only reason they aren't hard coded evil is because, as I've stated before, the alignment system is flawed. But if players are struggling with them conceptually then maybe they should be.
Until another system is in place I would +1 this. More people use it as an excuse to get around whatever obstacle they want in-game rather than using it as a RP tool to define their character. They do evil things and then when it is time for a quest its time to toss out the "But I'm Neutral Card".

Speaking from a thematic point as well, it doesnt matter what YOUR guild says you are. You can say evil is just a concept and there is no right and wrong. But to the people of Minas Tirith there is a right and wrong. Middle Earth has a very distinct point of view on good and evil. To ignore their lore in favor of a guilds wishes just seems odd to me. If you and the people you associate with kill babies, hold sacrificial rituals and are around/do a number of things that would most definitely make you evil in Middle Earth then I can only roll my eyes because you can't get in to do a quest.

The same applies to the Drow, in this version of Middle Earth they are connected to many other realms. So no they aren't exactly unknowing about what a dark-skinned elf really is. They can listen and gather information just like anyone else. And the majority of the Drow are not good, thematically evil and those that are good are a minority. The majority of the houses that are in major drow cities are all followers of Lolth who is literally the goddess of evil, amongst other titles. In fact in Lolth-worshipping city states like Menzoberranzan the reign of her priesthood was absolute. So you can't hold a title of Mother of whatever name from Menzoberranzan and claim to be the single irregularity with no repercussions from a goddess who is so jealous over worship she would demolish you and everyone whose spoken to you.
What about the Cabal of Hiddukel and Thanar then? They're evil yet not listed. Should we add them? What's the stance on minotaurs? In krynn, at least to the knights, they're not exactly welcome in places like Kalaman or Vingaard. What's the stance of Minas Tirith?

I'm not disagreeing with your logic, but this system could be a bit more standard and understandable. Just as players pick and choose when to consider themselves neutral or good, the same applies to hard code.

Hiddukel is an evil god by definition. Why aren't thieves evil then?

Let's review the guilds we have in Genesis and define in objective terms what good and evil is, bringing every guild to the same standard.

As it stands, we are too lenient on excuses for neutrality it seems. So let's stop pretending and using well ignored lore as an excuse to claim neutrality, and let's draw hard lines between good and evil, then. Or do you think those information gatherers of minas tirith can judge warlocks to be evil but are entirely clueless of the demon worshipping sybarites or the cult of hiddukel?
Agreed, nothing is perfect when it comes to code.
What about the Cabal of Hiddukel and Thanar then?
Hiddukel is an evil god by definition. Why aren't thieves evil then?
The Cabal are Evil, try going good as one. They also don't blatantly shout their god to the skies or introduce themselves as a member. They have the option to, which then they should be blacklisted. But their membership is/should be secretive. Just because someone can meta-game the information is beside the point.

Thanar are not actually evil in this version of them that was released. Not even really hardcore racist like the Aryan Nation anymore either. They pity those who aren't human, to be locked away in an imperfect body. They wouldn't wish such things on their worst enemies. The other races are lesser beings, it's like looking at someone with an incurable disease that can possibly be transmitted to you. You don't outright hate them, you feel sorry for them, but still don't want to touch them.
What's the stance on minotaurs?
In this time period they are viewed with distrust as the majority of them became pirates or joined the "other" side. Also unlike the way most people play a Knight they are a really racist group in fact most human cities are too. Dwarves shouldn't be allowed in Knights but Gm's choice. Kaz was an exception and a very very long time ago. Kalaman which -isn't- apart of the Knighthood has their own rules for their own reasons. I don't know what they are, I'm going to assume it's a racist port town that doesn't want pirates looting shit during wartime.

And actually I'm pretty sure you can enter the Keep as a human based minotaur. It's only when you go goblin as a base race that issues come up, in more places than Krynn too. Which I still haven't figured out why a goblin can become a half human half mooer anyways but it is what it is.
As it stands, we are too lenient on excuses for neutrality it seems. So let's stop pretending and using well ignored lore as an excuse to claim neutrality, and let's draw hard lines between good and evil, then. Or do you think those information gatherers of minas tirith can judge warlocks to be evil but are entirely clueless of the demon worshipping sybarites or the cult of hiddukel?
Agreed! If you have a system in place I say use it properly. Neutrality is fickle and very few guilds can actually claim to be Neutral. I don't think those information gatherers are exactly stretching when Warlocks have and do certain things within their guildhall and everyone is fine with that. If they can identify a Thief then ban them too, far as Sybarites Gods I'm a bit rusty but I would say look objectively at who the SU have as patrons. I dont believe they have a god who demands anything to the scale of which the Warlocks do. Capable of it perhaps, but its not a requirement.

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Dhez
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Dhez » 19 May 2020 13:00

Some points to consider:

1. Not all warlocks eat babies or souls.
2. If the thieves's excuse is that they can hide their affiliation, then please, it also applies to the FK. The guild's affiliation also is/should be, secretive.
3. If you need a crash course on the Idrys, let's chat.
4. If Thanar aren't evil, why is the Red Fang?That in itself is racist.
5. Are pirates not considered evil? I suppose it's pretty neutral to have a pirate theme? What's the difference between a pirate and a thief? Subtlety? How are we measuring 'evil' then?

Who's watching the watchers? The definition of good and evil seems to be a bit fuzzy. It's easier for goodies, of course, but when it comes to evil I notice a lot of hesitation.

If the thieves are evil, then why are they not on that list? Because they can hide their affiliation? So can I. Will that grant me access? No. So... I'm advocating for a moral review of all guilds and drawing a thick red line between both ends of the spectrum since Minas Tirith is apparently the beacon of goodness and judge of morality in Genesis.

So, by all means, classify warlocks and drow as evil and lock them out. But let's take a look at what's been passing off as neutral or good when it is just, if not more, evil than losing your mind sacrifying magic for Hastur.
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Tarlok
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Tarlok » 19 May 2020 13:11

It seems there is a willingness to pick winners and losers here for those who can gain access, even overriding the align category of one's guild. There is no need. Once again I say the easiest and best solution is to let alignment and alignment only dictate who can enter.

Thalric
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Thalric » 19 May 2020 14:25

Which is idiocy.

Because any AA or DA can become good-aligned for a time, afaik.
I know the DA's can, at least.

So, you arrive with a dragon at your back and a uniform on, and the guards should just let you in?
That makes not sense at all.

Tarlok
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Tarlok » 19 May 2020 14:46

Its a game. Its not supposed to mimic real life is it? You seem to be indicating it should.

A lone goblin near the gates would be shot with arrows before he could get near to display his colors of Caliana of which the MT guards could care less about. A fiery blazing inferno approaching the gates? Dowsed with dirt and water.

A shadowy veiled human, well hmm, we can tell your a warlock, even though there is no outward appearance, we use magic to determine your hobby and even though holy your banned why does it work this way?

And although Finwe listed guilds, he hasn't revealed how access really works, because there are several factors in play including guild membership and alignment and it seems change from time to time. On top of it shifting time to time due to fickle wizards, the timeline in middle earth shifts the alignment threshold changes for some people. Its bizarre.
Last edited by Tarlok on 19 May 2020 15:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Arman
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Arman » 19 May 2020 14:58

Dhez wrote:
19 May 2020 13:00
Some points to consider:

1. Not all warlocks eat babies or souls.
2. If the thieves's excuse is that they can hide their affiliation, then please, it also applies to the FK. The guild's affiliation also is/should be, secretive.
3. If you need a crash course on the Idrys, let's chat.
4. If Thanar aren't evil, why is the Red Fang?That in itself is racist.
5. Are pirates not considered evil? I suppose it's pretty neutral to have a pirate theme? What's the difference between a pirate and a thief? Subtlety? How are we measuring 'evil' then?

Who's watching the watchers? The definition of good and evil seems to be a bit fuzzy. It's easier for goodies, of course, but when it comes to evil I notice a lot of hesitation.

If the thieves are evil, then why are they not on that list? Because they can hide their affiliation? So can I. Will that grant me access? No. So... I'm advocating for a moral review of all guilds and drawing a thick red line between both ends of the spectrum since Minas Tirith is apparently the beacon of goodness and judge of morality in Genesis.

So, by all means, classify warlocks and drow as evil and lock them out. But let's take a look at what's been passing off as neutral or good when it is just, if not more, evil than losing your mind sacrifying magic for Hastur.
Or... we can just change how we describe the naughty and nice list from being 'good' and 'evil' to desirables and undesirables. Just accept that, like a nightclub bouncer, Minas Tirith doesn't have to justify why it doesn't let certain people in. The alignment system is flawed and was gamed in the past so that certain guilds and races are on the naughty list. If the domain dictates certain races/guilds shouldn't have access to certain areas for thematic reasons, that's all the justification needed.

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Dhez
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Dhez » 19 May 2020 15:04

Arman wrote:
19 May 2020 14:58
Dhez wrote:
19 May 2020 13:00
Some points to consider:

1. Not all warlocks eat babies or souls.
2. If the thieves's excuse is that they can hide their affiliation, then please, it also applies to the FK. The guild's affiliation also is/should be, secretive.
3. If you need a crash course on the Idrys, let's chat.
4. If Thanar aren't evil, why is the Red Fang?That in itself is racist.
5. Are pirates not considered evil? I suppose it's pretty neutral to have a pirate theme? What's the difference between a pirate and a thief? Subtlety? How are we measuring 'evil' then?

Who's watching the watchers? The definition of good and evil seems to be a bit fuzzy. It's easier for goodies, of course, but when it comes to evil I notice a lot of hesitation.

If the thieves are evil, then why are they not on that list? Because they can hide their affiliation? So can I. Will that grant me access? No. So... I'm advocating for a moral review of all guilds and drawing a thick red line between both ends of the spectrum since Minas Tirith is apparently the beacon of goodness and judge of morality in Genesis.

So, by all means, classify warlocks and drow as evil and lock them out. But let's take a look at what's been passing off as neutral or good when it is just, if not more, evil than losing your mind sacrifying magic for Hastur.
Or... we can just change how we describe the naughty and nice list from being 'good' and 'evil' to desirables and undesirables. Just accept that, like a nightclub bouncer, Minas Tirith doesn't have to justify why it doesn't let certain people in. The alignment system is flawed and was gamed in the past so that certain guilds and races are on the naughty list. If the domain dictates certain races/guilds shouldn't have access to certain areas for thematic reasons, that's all the justification needed.
Which doesn't address the points I raised. I'm not saying that warlocks or drow should be considered good and welcome with open arms. I'm asking for the same standards by which they are judged to apply to everyone.

Sure, there's no justification needed. At the beginning of this thread I asked for clarification and I got it. I should be satisfied.

Thank you for your input.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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Dhez
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Dhez » 19 May 2020 15:18

finwe wrote:
18 May 2020 03:21
I checked the gates, and this is what I found. These guilds are allowed in since they are good aligned:

* Calian warrior's guild
* Heralds of the Valar
* Holy Order of the Stars
* Noldor of Imladris
* Rangers of the Westlands
* Solamnian Knights

These evil guilds aren't allowed:
* Angmar Army
* Dragonarmy
* Drow of Underdark
* Fire Knives
* Morgul Mages
* Necromancers Of Vile Darkness
* Orcs of Middle Earth
* Priests of Takhisis
* Red Fang Guild
* Templars of Takhisis
* Warlocks of Faerun

Even though there are good aligned drow in the game, they are still blocked because of their heritage.
This is what I've been responding to.

So, from what I understand here as the reason for blocking them out is: guild is evil aligned, therefore, blocked.

So it's an easy if/else statement.

However, and here is the issue.

If thieves == evil,
do block;

Except, they're not on the list.

If warlocks == evil,
do block;

Except, they're neutral (I'm NOT speaking about thematics. I'm speaking about hardcoded alignment restrictions which passed peer reviews when the guild was released - if this was an issue at the time, then why was the release accepted?).

Based on what what Finwe said:
I checked the gates, and this is what I found. These guilds are allowed in since they are good aligned:
See what I mean? This is what is confusing.

Now, the problem is. We have three solutions here:

1. We decide to run the 'block command' based on a guild being 'evil aligned', mechanically. If so, then the guild HAS to be restricted to evil align for it to be blocked. This is not the case. So, flaw.
2. We decide to run the 'block command' based on a guild being 'evil aligned', thematically. If so, then we have incongruences in the list and we need to define what is evil and what isn't.
3. We decide to run the 'block command' based on what the current active ME wizard believes is evil, and every time there is a change from whoever decides this is right or not, we bow our heads and say 'amen'.

For the sake of peace and understanding that this is definitely far from a priority for wizards, I'll go with #3 and practice guided meditation.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
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Tarlok
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Re: Drow and Minas Tirith - latest status?

Post by Tarlok » 19 May 2020 16:02

Those with alignment checking abilities have surely used it on evil players and noticed they are evil. I suspect it would be fairly easy to run a Gorboth style analysis of evil guilded players' alignments and verify, duh-ta-da, that players in evil guilds are evil 99.973% of the time. I don’t understand the hesitation to make 'good' places that merely check alignment. If it’s strictly thematics, as in Vingaard Keep I think that’s understandable - but this strange conglomeration of alignment and guild lists is unneeded and frankly obnoxious. I think everyone knows the alignment system isn't ideal, but it’s what we have and it’s easy to work with. Are the alignment skeptics truly worried about devious evil guildies killing 4000 wights then lurking inside Minas Tirith waiting to ambush an unsuspecting rising hero ranger in the bank? After grinding for 24 hours to adjust alignment the devious evil guildy is hoping they don't lose their link for 2 hours or the game doesn’t crash because the guild kick for being good aligned at login is a powerful disincentive. There really is no need to check more than alignment. And if we’re hiding behind thematics I think we’ve already demonstrated that doesn’t make sense.

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