Complaints about Block

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Lindros

Complaints about Block

Post by Lindros » 16 Mar 2010 01:59

Tarax the Terrible wrote:Ogres already have uber block..
Its hardly getting screwed over.
Knights do not get anything extra either.
Good point about the casters tho.
Only ones possibly getting screwed are DA's who should have got dfear back.

Its not global if everyone but Ogres gets the skill.

Knights allready have the skill to max level.

Will be intresting to see if Mercs gets it or not, I am leaning towards they wont get it, will be too much whining from goodies if they do ;)

Also, I have yet to hear any explanation why it was changed so combat does not have to be initiated before trying to block someone. Blocking should be counted as any special, and should require combat
be initiated, hell even more so considering how powerful it is.

Ilrahil

Re: Discussion Re: Global Balance Changes

Post by Ilrahil » 16 Mar 2010 02:02

I dislike the way block was introduced into the game.

I am not sure how the new one works nor will I probably get a chance to test it however I think that if you are blocking someone leaving from an exit it should take ALL your focus. That means NO specials. I guess this was more of an issue when Knights could execute block + 2 other specials all at the same time, as well as another ability, but now that block is global I still think that it should be something that is addressed.

Also I hope that you fixed the ridiculousness that was block being on a timer, and unbreakable if the player was larger than you for 20-25 seconds. It was a bit outrageous.

Lindros

Re: Discussion Re: Global Balance Changes

Post by Lindros » 16 Mar 2010 02:09

Ilrahil wrote:I dislike the way block was introduced into the game.

I am not sure how the new one works nor will I probably get a chance to test it however I think that if you are blocking someone leaving from an exit it should take ALL your focus. That means NO specials. I guess this was more of an issue when Knights could execute block + 2 other specials all at the same time, as well as another ability, but now that block is global I still think that it should be something that is addressed.

Also I hope that you fixed the ridiculousness that was block being on a timer, and unbreakable if the player was larger than you for 20-25 seconds. It was a bit outrageous.

Aye, I agree, blocking should take your focus out of other things, should not be able to throw other specials while doing it.
If nothing else, if your blocking someone you should take more hits. Also I think only the person taking hits should be
able to block.

Its funny how knights block you can stack easily with multiple knights(and know with multiple players)yet the ogrestomp is severely limited in this,
guess giving evil chars a block similar to knights aint an option huh?


I hope with block being introduced on a global scale, that it has been indeed been looked into, player size should deffinatly be a huge factor when it comes to breaking someone's block.
I had a titan knight block me for 20-25 secs which if you ask me is bullshit, size should be rewarded in some ways, even if I am sure lots of people here on the forums will disagree.

Why should people get punished for growing big over the years?

Creed

Re: Discussion Re: Global Balance Changes

Post by Creed » 16 Mar 2010 02:25

Lindros wrote: Its funny how knights block you can stack easily with multiple knights(and know with multiple players)yet the ogrestomp is severely limited in this,
guess giving evil chars a block similar to knights aint an option huh?
What does ogres have to do with evils as a whole?
Ogres are neutral as a guild, and therefore alignment shouldn't be dragged into this.
They are probably prohibited, because they already got their own kind of block.

Lindros

Re: Discussion Re: Global Balance Changes

Post by Lindros » 16 Mar 2010 02:43

Creed wrote:
Lindros wrote: Its funny how knights block you can stack easily with multiple knights(and know with multiple players)yet the ogrestomp is severely limited in this,
guess giving evil chars a block similar to knights aint an option huh?
What does ogres have to do with evils as a whole?
Ogres are neutral as a guild, and therefore alignment shouldn't be dragged into this.
They are probably prohibited, because they already got their own kind of block.

Ogres are more evil than neutral I would say.

And sure Ogres got a "block" of their own.
But so does several of the casting guilds out there.

IMO giving someone as powerful as spellcasters a blocking ability, beyond their own spells doing similar things, its skewed, it will fuck balance up for sure.
2 casters join up, and block you for 10-20 seconds, thats more than enough for the more powerful casting guilds to kill a myth if prepared for it.

If you give these spellcasting guilds the power to block+their spells doing similar, then ogres should be able to block as well thats all I am saying.

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petros
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Re: Complaints about Block

Post by petros » 16 Mar 2010 03:09

Moved complaints about existing Knights block and Ogre block into "Game - Help" section.

Much of the information has no relevance to the changes, first because it is inaccurate, and second because block hasn't yet been enabled in the game. Any discussions about whether you like or dislike the global block ability should occur after it has been active in the game.

Rhynox
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Re: Discussion Re: Global Balance Changes

Post by Rhynox » 16 Mar 2010 03:40

Lindros wrote:I had a titan knight block me for 20-25 secs which if you ask me is bullshit, size should be rewarded in some ways, even if I am sure lots of people here on the forums will disagree.
Size is already rewarded, as the bigger you are the more damage you do, and the more damage you can resist. I would love to be able to beat the crap out of you just because Rhynox is bigger than Lindros, but that won't happen. I would love to be able to beat Akugla or the death knight easily since Rhynox is bigger than them, but it takes a good time to get them down. I would love to be able to kill Ashburz because Rhynox is bigger than him, but that will never happen.

By the way, did you also request that whenever an ogre stomps you cannot use specials as well? ;) You know, I think the monks could get a "grip" technique that prevents the enemy from using specials (much like the orcs in Middle Earth) so that others in the team can heal or kill him.

Note that I don't like the timed-based block too much, but I feel it is better than the size one (otherwise a hero knight would not be able to block anyone bigger, and Kuti could block every player in realms just like the old knight block). But I agree that size should play a role. For example, when a shieldbearer slams, the time the opponent stays stunned depends on the difference of the strength between the slammer and the victim. That is why the yeti can be stunned for a shorter time than someone else, and why we have quite a lot of problems trying to stun ogres in pfights. Block should be similar, where (not sure if one or all) statistics are taken into account, assuring at least a minimum (for example, 7 seconds of block at worst, then increasing it as the size difference diminishes and peaking if the blocker is much bigger than the blocked). However, it shouldn't be based only on strength, otherwise ogres will always break free (just like they almost always shrug our slams).

By the way, I heard ogres cannot be tracked nor trapped with caltrops. Those are pretty good advantages if true.

Lindros

Re: Discussion Re: Global Balance Changes

Post by Lindros » 16 Mar 2010 06:54

Rhynox wrote:
Lindros wrote:I had a titan knight block me for 20-25 secs which if you ask me is bullshit, size should be rewarded in some ways, even if I am sure lots of people here on the forums will disagree.
Size is already rewarded, as the bigger you are the more damage you do, and the more damage you can resist. I would love to be able to beat the crap out of you just because Rhynox is bigger than Lindros, but that won't happen. I would love to be able to beat Akugla or the death knight easily since Rhynox is bigger than them, but it takes a good time to get them down. I would love to be able to kill Ashburz because Rhynox is bigger than him, but that will never happen.

By the way, did you also request that whenever an ogre stomps you cannot use specials as well? ;) You know, I think the monks could get a "grip" technique that prevents the enemy from using specials (much like the orcs in Middle Earth) so that others in the team can heal or kill him.

Note that I don't like the timed-based block too much, but I feel it is better than the size one (otherwise a hero knight would not be able to block anyone bigger, and Kuti could block every player in realms just like the old knight block). But I agree that size should play a role. For example, when a shieldbearer slams, the time the opponent stays stunned depends on the difference of the strength between the slammer and the victim. That is why the yeti can be stunned for a shorter time than someone else, and why we have quite a lot of problems trying to stun ogres in pfights. Block should be similar, where (not sure if one or all) statistics are taken into account, assuring at least a minimum (for example, 7 seconds of block at worst, then increasing it as the size difference diminishes and peaking if the blocker is much bigger than the blocked). However, it shouldn't be based only on strength, otherwise ogres will always break free (just like they almost always shrug our slams).

By the way, I heard ogres cannot be tracked nor trapped with caltrops. Those are pretty good advantages if true.
Sure making it based on strength alone isnt a good option, perhaps dexterity should play in as well ;)
Or maybe average of blocker vs block victim, I for one think that if your a myth you should break a titan's block easily,
and not have to wait 20-30 secs.

As for Rhynox not beating the shit out of Linny,ehm, I'm pretty sure you'd take me down easily in a 1 on 1 duel, we can give it a go if you want?

Block is alot more powerful than ogrestomp will ever be, because stomps does not stack the same way block does. I think its bs that a titan knight can block me for more than 5 seconds to be honest, if I am bigger,stronger,faster,better looking, hell everything known to man, I should darn well be able to break their block with ease.

Problem I see with letting block be skill based alone, is that lack of logic having a wanderer block a myth, it doesnt make sense, someone much stronger/more agile/faster, would be able to dash by
with ease. I do not think a hero should be able to block anyone bigger than them, seing how block is already made so you can have multiple people blocking 1 exit, making it pretty darn hard to break
the block. Size or blocker vs block victim should play a larger part. Not to mention letting spellcasters have block skill is bullshit, if you let them have block, then ogres should have it as well.


As for caltrops or tracking, nobody uses any of those anymore :)


Your suggestion for at least 7 second block, I have to disagree, that way all you have to do to get a pkill is bring 3-4 newbies along and have them help in the blocking,
and you stack 5-6 ppl's block together and anyone would get killed, I do not think its a good option.


But who knows perhaps the wizards have revised block and what its based on, and that you cannot multi block 1 exit, guess we will have to wait and see.

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petros
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Re: Discussion Re: Global Balance Changes

Post by petros » 16 Mar 2010 07:23

Lindros wrote:Your suggestion for at least 7 second block, I have to disagree, that way all you have to do to get a pkill is bring 3-4 newbies along and have them help in the blocking,
and you stack 5-6 ppl's block together and anyone would get killed, I do not think its a good option
Let me refer you to two questions in the common board post.
petros wrote:Q: Great! *sarcasm* That just means one more thing for the big guys, while us
little folk suffer.
A: Actually, the purpose of introducing block for everyone is so that the
little guys can finally fight back against the big baddies that have been
abusing them for years. Gather up some of your friends and see how much bullies
want to cross you now.

Q: I'm a bully. This sucks! Why should I be blocked if I'm a big bad myth?
A: Every action has consequences. If you step on the little guy, you may find
yourself paying for it later.

Rhynox
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 03:48
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Re: Discussion Re: Global Balance Changes

Post by Rhynox » 16 Mar 2010 07:31

Last reply before hitting the sack.
Lindros wrote:Sure making it based on strength alone isnt a good option, perhaps dexterity should play in as well ;)
Or maybe average of blocker vs block victim, I for one think that if your a myth you should break a titan's block easily,
and not have to wait 20-30 secs.
In defense of knights, I would say they are master of their craft. Maybe in the future block could be changed like the room of the yeti, where you can only try to leave once every few seconds, trying to spam northwest to exit the room just doesn't pay.
Lindros wrote:Block is alot more powerful than ogrestomp will ever be, because stomps does not stack the same way block does. I think its bs that a titan knight can block me for more than 5 seconds to be honest, if I am bigger,stronger,faster,better looking, hell everything known to man, I should darn well be able to break their block with ease.
The thing with ogre's blocking is that it works for all exits at the same time, including non obvious ones. I have been blocked by Dinendae while fighting him, a soldier and Marduk, which allowed this last one to throw every spell he had on me. Fortunately I had prepared myself with a black platemail, ermine robe and ruby ring or it could have been pretty nasty.

Since there should be a single block type in Genesis (now that the combat system has been reworked) I guess all the blocks stack the same. The knight's one covers a single exit for an extended period of time, while the ogre one covers all exits for a short period of time. This one should be like the knight's one, but much shorter. Truly, I don't expect this to run for over ten seconds.

Note that the logic doesn't apply for Terel trolls, whose blocks are determined by intelect/wisdom. Rhynox couldn't break their blocks at myth, while elves could pass through them with ease at mature champion.
Lindros wrote:Problem I see with letting block be skill based alone, is that lack of logic having a wanderer block a myth, it doesnt make sense, someone much stronger/more agile/faster, would be able to dash by
with ease.
Well, I guess you could dispatch the wanderer before his block ends :D
Lindros wrote:Not to mention letting spellcasters have block skill is bullshit, if you let them have block, then ogres should have it as well.
I agree that spellcasters having it (with the current system where you cannot break their concentration) could be pretty dangerous.
Lindros wrote:As for caltrops or tracking, nobody uses any of those anymore :)
Well, they used to work pretty well against goblins riding their wolves :D
Lindros wrote:Your suggestion for at least 7 second block, I have to disagree, that way all you have to do to get a pkill is bring 3-4 newbies along and have them help in the blocking,
and you stack 5-6 ppl's block together and anyone would get killed, I do not think its a good option.
I haven't been able to see the knights use block together (pairing knights is a pretty hard task lately!). However, as far as I know it should work similar to the new stun, where you can stack effects but the second (and subsequents) effects are diminished. So, the first block could block for 10 seconds, the next one for 5, the following two more, but then they would not add. I know it is not possible to keep a target stunned (as monks or rangers can right now, they are running on the old stun code) because whenever the third and fourth slam hits, they go for damage instead of stun to allow the opponent retaliate.

Besides, if the room has four exits, you would need twelve people to stack three blockers per exit. 12 dudes could easily kill anyone without needing to block :D

I think this change is made thinking in the average of the population (which is between rising hero and titan) rather than the top. As Petros said, it gives small people (the majority of Genesis) the ability to fight bigger foes. Since we are big we think it is not fair, but the change itself will allow a guild whose bigger members are asleep (for example, the dragonarmies) to actually being able to retaliate attacks.

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