Complaints about Block

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gorboth
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Re: Complaints about Block

Post by gorboth » 17 Mar 2010 20:07

Here is some history on block:

Originally, the block effect was most heavily represented in the game via the Rainbow Wall spell that the Ancient Order of Mystics were able to produce. Many many players (including myself) met their death thanks to this spell. As time passed, more guilds were given abilities or spells that produced blocking effects, and this became part of the language of playerfighting. Back in these days, pvp death was *vastly* more common than it is currently.

When Goldberry became AoP (2001 or so) she made the ruling that powers that prevented players from leaving a room were no longer things guilds would offer. This forced a number of guilds (including the Morgul Mages and Knights) to have these powers removed or trimmed from certain spells or specials (the Mystics had been closed, and were no longer a factor.) A such, the game grew accustomed to a new type of pvp reality. It was now nearly impossible to kill a player who knew how to run. Players decided to look to the design of the game itself for blocking abilities, and found their natural ally in the boating system, or various npcs. And so, the art of pvp shifted to carefully planned assasinations, which often were planned quite a long time in advance. Players would observe the patterns of their enemies, learn their daily routines, and decide where and when their enemies were finally putting themselves in a game-designed block (boat, npc, whatnot.) And so, for the last decade, players have always known that when they enter a boat, they must take every precaution, because they are effectively being blocked.

About 3 years ago, discussions started in earnest in the wizard community toward the idea of returning blocking to the game. We felt that the players of the game had, over time, grown quite soft. That is, players have gotten so used to the idea that, if you know what you are doing, you can make it next to impossible for someone to kill you. A result of this fact has been for many players to come to see death as a completely unpalatable outcome. Back in "the day" players died all the time. But in the modern era, a player who dies has often not died for so long, that they have amassed huge stats that they just cannot bear to see compromised. We wizards, and I especially, have not liked this at all. We, frankly, want to see death happen a lot more than it does. We want to see players grow used to the experience, have the culture shift, and have death again be a frequent, anticipated, and accepted aspect of play for just about everyone. We decided to reintroduce the concept, and the Ogre guild was slated to be the first to bring it back. Not long after, the Knights were given the ability that they had pioneered in the early history of the game.

The results were not very satisfactory. Both the Ogres and the Knights were (for numerous reasons) not very organized or populated guilds. As such, these effects were underrepresented in the game. Moreover, there was bitterness on the part of many other guilds who felt that they should also be able to use such abilities. "Crowd control" as it is often referred to is such a key element to PvP, that people felt it unbalances the game to not have it be a universal aspect. And so, we started looking at the globalization idea. I personally felt strongly that before we make it so much easier to kill players, that we needed some tweaking to the death system itself. So I worked hard with the other Arches to get death recovery implemented. The initial iteration of death recovery still ended up punishing players who died a lot, so it was in the end decided to make it a system that offered full-grace, and would always restore you to the largest you had ever been (rather than setting the recovery point lower each time you died.)

This was one of the final big pieces that I felt needed to be in place, and calibrated properly. It was now time to introduce block globally. We sat on it a bit longer, and with the move to the new machine, and the renewed passion and energy that the wizard community has enjoyed as a result, decided to finally get it out of the loading dock.

So ... here comes block. You are probably going to die. This is, we feel, as it should be. Get used to it. ;-)

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Rhynox
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Re: Complaints about Block

Post by Rhynox » 17 Mar 2010 20:29

Lindros wrote:I think people will use second chars to take vengence of first chars etc
Geez, I know that feeling. I had three or four players who attacked me with all their characters :D

Makfly
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Re: Discussion Re: Global Balance Changes

Post by Makfly » 17 Mar 2010 21:13

Lindros wrote:I had a titan knight block me for 20-25 secs which if you ask me is bullshit, size should be rewarded in some ways, even if I am sure lots of people here on the forums will disagree.
Lindros wrote:...Or maybe average of blocker vs block victim, I for one think that if your a myth you should break a titan's block easily, and not have to wait 20-30 secs.
Why are you complaining how unfair it is that a titan blocked you for those 20-30 seconds as a myth, when Lindros is just a champion?
Or are you talking about another of your characters or what?

I mean a titan is the level below champion, so there isn't necessarily that huge a difference in combat stats.

Anyways, I guess it's expected that you would complain about block and how it would might balance the playing field in terms of mortal levels, which is fair enough, that's your opinion. But at least don't try to call for balance, when this change is made for doing just that.
I don't think you have much to fear from this block introduction at all, to be honest.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Ilrahil

Re: Complaints about Block

Post by Ilrahil » 18 Mar 2010 02:32

Makfly we've been asking for global block (Me and Lindros) for a yaer or two now. And I'm sure Gorboth can attest to that for me.

We aren't complaining that block is being introduced, we are mentioning concerns with how it might be introduced, and flaws in what other blocks in the game are.

Petros in regards to you saying that spellcasters have no forms of crowd control... I will not mention any guilds, but two casting guilds have spells that in different ways make you extremely exhausted... extremely fast. That whether you classify it to be or not, as a player is a form of crowd control, because if I move 2-3 rooms and am suddenly extremely exhausted from extremely alert, I no longer can move and am a sitting duck.

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petros
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Re: Complaints about Block

Post by petros » 18 Mar 2010 03:44

Ilrahil wrote:Petros in regards to you saying that spellcasters have no forms of crowd control... I will not mention any guilds, but two casting guilds have spells that in different ways make you extremely exhausted... extremely fast. That whether you classify it to be or not, as a player is a form of crowd control, because if I move 2-3 rooms and am suddenly extremely exhausted from extremely alert, I no longer can move and am a sitting duck.
Ilrahil, have you actually experienced moving 2-3 rooms and become completely exhausted from extremely alert? Because that effect doesn't exist.

But I'll take the bait. Let's assume that these abilities actually exist for spellcasters. I hope you would agree that crowd control is not true crowd control if it's easily overcome, right? If I were playing the game, and someone wanted to fatigue me to keep me from moving. I would a) eat lots of food, b) carry less, c) carry fatigue curing herbs and d) ride a mount. Any combination of these things would render these effects useless and allow me to move or escape and it would be quite silly to consider them crowd control measures.

But let's even take it one step further and assume that you can't overcome this fatigue for whatever reason. If you can't move because you're fatigued, you're definitely screwed. What use is block to a spellcaster who has this ability? Will blocking an enemy that is too fatigued to move make said abilities any stronger?

Maybe I'm missing something. :?

Arcon

Re: Complaints about Block

Post by Arcon » 18 Mar 2010 11:35

What they mean is that if a caster blocks you for 10-15 sec, then that caster will have time to cast fatigued spells, weakening spells poison etc etc. I don't know how many spells a caster can cast in 15 secs, but if they have some spell to make you tired and they have time to cast it, you are dead. They block you and then make you too tired to run away.

Ilrahil

Re: Complaints about Block

Post by Ilrahil » 18 Mar 2010 14:59

Thanks Arcon!

And Petros those spells exist. Because yes I have been engaged with both those guilds and found myself unable to move after a few rooms.

If we take your stance of being properly prepared then Caltrops are not a method of crowd control either, because for the properly prepared you can get around them, yet their entire purpose is to prevent people from moving.

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petros
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Re: Complaints about Block

Post by petros » 18 Mar 2010 17:17

arcon wrote:What they mean is that if a caster blocks you for 10-15 sec, then that caster will have time to cast fatigued spells, weakening spells poison etc etc. I don't know how many spells a caster can cast in 15 secs, but if they have some spell to make you tired and they have time to cast it, you are dead. They block you and then make you too tired to run away.
Arcon, the problem I have with this assumption is that it doesn't make any sense to me. Neither spellcasting nor block work in the way that is described. Again, assuming that these abilities work in the way that Ilrahil claims (which it doesn't), if you're fully fatigued, then block is irrelevant. If you're not, then you're not blocked. The two are mutually exclusive to each other. The question to ask when trying to figure out whether two forms of crowd control should co-exist is whether they stack upon each other. In the case of global block and ogre abilities, we are saying that they do. When and if spellcasters get a form of crowd control that actually stacks with block, they will also be restricted from block.
Ilrahil wrote:If we take your stance of being properly prepared then Caltrops are not a method of crowd control either, because for the properly prepared you can get around them, yet their entire purpose is to prevent people from moving.
Caltrops don't prevent you from leaving, they encourage you to stay, giving you an incentive not to leave. So you are right, I don't consider them in the same category as block. Sure, it may harm you, but you always have a choice whether you want to be hurt by them, whether it is preparing adequately, or simply taking the penalty to escape. Think about it this way, true block is what happens when your wimpy goes off and you can't leave. In the case of true block, you die in the room you are blocked in.

Arcon

Re: Complaints about Block

Post by Arcon » 18 Mar 2010 19:05

Petros, I will try to explain with a little story.

We have little peacefull player A and not so peacefull caster B. Caster B has a spell that can make you tired very fast and/or a very dangerous poison spell.

Caster B has seen player A fighting in Gont, and he has also seen player A looting, so, caster B goes and stand in the shop while blocking the only exit and he waits. Now and then he might have to re block the exit.
Player A, that know that caster B is nasty and might attack him, would normally run away at the sight of caster B. But today when he comes running into the shop to sell his hard earned loot and sees caster B there, he try to run away, caster B was already blocking the only exit so he couldn't.
Caster B knows that player A will manage to run away very soon, casts a tiring spell or poison spell.
The spell hits player A, player A manage to break the block but he is suddenly too tired to run, or he manage to run just a couple of rooms. Caster B strolls up to player A, waves at him and nuke him.


The difference between caster B with or without block is that without block player A would have run away at the sight of caster B and he would have had a chance of surviving.
If caster B would NOT have had a tiring spell or anything similar, player A might have been able to survive if he ran fast as soon as he could break the block.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

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OgreToyBoy
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Re: Complaints about Block

Post by OgreToyBoy » 18 Mar 2010 19:20

I can only hope and assume that the new block will have some sort of random recharge, much like the Ogre 'block'. I'd say in combination with an Ogre the new block will be highly efficient, why I will leave for you to figure out :roll:

Doubt this will introduce an iwin button for anyone.

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