Perma-saving items

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Mim
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Re: Perma-saving items

Post by Mim » 25 Nov 2019 01:46

Cherek wrote:
25 Nov 2019 00:26

But it's not only newbies who benefit from the "save on person"-system. That's just one of several benefits with things saving on a player. Other benefits that would go away if we reverted:
- You don't need to gear up every time you want to play (unless you're in a guild that demands it).
- Less need for players in more open guilds to hide stuff in private droprooms around the realms in order not to lose it.
- Casual players benefit a lot by being able to save things on their person which gives them more incentive to play.
- The imbue you worked hard for can be _yours_ as long as it lasts.
- No risk to lose stuff by accidentally LD'ing out and lose EQ. (That always sucked)
- No risk of accidentally quitting out with glowing EQ on you to "lose a glow".
So beautifully written.
All theese points makes it clear we should not go back.
As an explorer, you have done enough to retire.

Kvator
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Re: Perma-saving items

Post by Kvator » 25 Nov 2019 16:36

Cherek wrote:
25 Nov 2019 00:29
Kvator wrote:
24 Nov 2019 20:22
Purge will be related to spells as well, or you want to give another advantage to magic-users? :(
Please explain what you mean. Are you saying herbs and components should be purged too?
Nope.

Spells in spellbook (dunno how it works for MM, PoT and EC nowadays - but since we have standardization now it should be kind of similar to SOHM / WOHS) should disappear during purge. After all they're basically 'eq' for magic-users. Why should you take away all the fun from these poor souls. Let them play with the rest of us as well.

Of course drop for spells should be lowered - depending on their power level (with basic ones being available to purchase in shops and most powerful ones - like fireball or ice storm - being treated like artifacts - more mages have them = drop rate is lowered appropriately)
Last edited by Kvator on 25 Nov 2019 16:46, edited 1 time in total.

Thalric
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Re: Perma-saving items

Post by Thalric » 25 Nov 2019 16:46

In that case I guess you should also have all your skills and abilities purged, and only have the option to train 20? 50? skill levels per day.
Both ideas is equally stupid.

How long does it take to get relatively functional EQ these days?
Start out with buying some stuff, go around, have a bit of luck... 5 hours to have half a set of the stuff you usually use?

Kvator
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Re: Perma-saving items

Post by Kvator » 25 Nov 2019 16:50

Thalric wrote:
25 Nov 2019 16:46
In that case I guess you should also have all your skills and abilities purged, and only have the option to train 20? 50? skill levels per day.
Both ideas is equally stupid.

How long does it take to get relatively functional EQ these days?
Start out with buying some stuff, go around, have a bit of luck... 5 hours to have half a set of the stuff you usually use?
Skills are different, since without proper cimcurstances (proper weapon, proper spell) they're basically useless. It's kind of 'potential' of your character.

Not all spells must be hard to get (I even mentioned that basic ones should be available to buy). Magic missile + magic armour combo sounds like equivalent of 'relatively functional EQ'. I just don't understand why magic equivalents of FBB should be kind of no-dull / everlasting thingies.

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nils
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Re: Perma-saving items

Post by nils » 25 Nov 2019 18:40

Cherek wrote:
25 Nov 2019 00:26
But it's not only newbies who benefit from the "save on person"-system. That's just one of several benefits with things saving on a player. Other benefits that would go away if we reverted:
- You don't need to gear up every time you want to play (unless you're in a guild that demands it).
- Less need for players in more open guilds to hide stuff in private droprooms around the realms in order not to lose it.
- Casual players benefit a lot by being able to save things on their person which gives them more incentive to play.
- The imbue you worked hard for can be _yours_ as long as it lasts.
- No risk to lose stuff by accidentally LD'ing out and lose EQ. (That always sucked)
- No risk of accidentally quitting out with glowing EQ on you to "lose a glow".

Do we really want to remove the good things with the new system, and bring back the old issues? I think we can do better than just reverting.

As for letting the newbie pin save all inventory, that was discussed in the past (before the ever-saving change), and the concern was that players and/or seconds below veteran would be used as "eq mules" to save older player's stuff. Which is definitely a legitimate concern I think.
1. We've lived with this system "forever". It's a feature that makes Genesis what it is, and is the driving force behind keeping racks stocked by subsequent EQ-hunts, ie playing the game called Genesis. It's part of the difficulty. Want a different game? Go play a different game.
2. This isn't an argument for change. It's what keeps certain guilds more valuable/desireable than others. Part of the risk in "free-to-join"-guilds is that racks are always subject to idiots looking for a quick loot.
3. Were we not experiencing an increase in players with the old system where this "incentive" did not exist?
4. Guilds themselves can find ways to cope with this, name-tagged scrips (from sybarus) solved this issue before, it can again. Another reason racks are valuable.
5. So use racks.
6. Accidentally quitting out? You forget to press "i"+enter before you quit? Forgive me for saying so, but you can't cure stupidity, certainly not by making a game "idiot safe".

By increasing the chance of an item saving gear WILL eventually fall out of the game, but still have a good chance of staying untill it wears out. Randomness is praised in most matters in this game, why shouldn't it continue to be praised?
I think it's the simplest "mod" you can do to make guilds and racks matter (again) without screwing up the economics of the game. It wouldn't even require a purge.
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

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Cherek
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Re: Perma-saving items

Post by Cherek » 26 Nov 2019 03:28

Kvator: That's a very different discussion and not really related to perma-saving EQ. I don't think we should make it more complicated by throwing in more variables.

Nils: Genesis has evolved and changed a lot since the start. Just because a system has "always" been there doesn't mean it can't evolve and change at some point. I do agree that there were good things with the old system too, and I have to admit I was quite skeptical about this change as well. If you would go back to look at my own arguments before the change you would see that I strongly argued for keeping the old system for all magical EQ, and only let non-magical EQ perma-save. However, after trying it out I have changed my mind. I think there are a lot of benefits with the new system and I don't think we should give up on it without trying to work out the side-effects and give it a serious chance.

I think it's pretty clear I won't be able to convince you of this, though, and you probably won't be able to convince me that reverting is the best idea either :)

Kvator
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Re: Perma-saving items

Post by Kvator » 26 Nov 2019 11:55

Cherek wrote:
26 Nov 2019 03:28
Kvator: That's a very different discussion and not really related to perma-saving EQ. I don't think we should make it more complicated by throwing in more variables.
So there was nothing about purge and resetting things every now and then to even the chances between players?
Mkay then. Move on!

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nils
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Re: Perma-saving items

Post by nils » 26 Nov 2019 13:19

Cherek wrote:
26 Nov 2019 03:28
..I do agree that there were good things with the old system too, and I have to admit I was quite skeptical about this change as well. If you would go back to look at my own arguments before the change you would see that I strongly argued for keeping the old system for all magical EQ, and only let non-magical EQ perma-save. However, after trying it out I have changed my mind. I think there are a lot of benefits with the new system and I don't think we should give up on it without trying to work out the side-effects and give it a serious chance.

I think it's pretty clear I won't be able to convince you of this, though, and you probably won't be able to convince me that reverting is the best idea either :)
Think maybe you missed my argument about this in an earlier post. For me personally, waking up with full gear is perfect. It allows for more casual play. It also allowed me to hoard, and keep, imbues virtually indefinitely. My point is that what's good for me isn't neccessarily what's good for the game. You say you tried and liked, and I agree - I tried and liked too.

It isn't about personal preference, I think it has destroyed a lot of fundamental game mechanics, and that is ultimately more important to the game even though it'll "suck more for me".
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

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Cherek
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Re: Perma-saving items

Post by Cherek » 26 Nov 2019 16:10

Kvator wrote:
26 Nov 2019 11:55
Cherek wrote:
26 Nov 2019 03:28
Kvator: That's a very different discussion and not really related to perma-saving EQ. I don't think we should make it more complicated by throwing in more variables.
So there was nothing about purge and resetting things every now and then to even the chances between players?
Mkay then. Move on!
Before the perma-save change spells worked exactly like they do now, and they will continue to work the same if we add a decay and/or armageddons that wipe away EQ. Why would Armageddon, or an item purge, remove things that exist in your spellbook? Armageddon never did that before, why would it now? We're restoring equipment to a more normal state again, which has nothing to do with learned spells.

It sounds like you are upset that you will lose EQ, and I get that, we should have fixed this a long time ago. You were never supposed to grow used to a game where some EQ can never be lost. But taking a swing at spells to "even things out" is not the way to go I think. You have enjoyed a long period of awesome EQ, but we have to find a more realistic system. Let's do that first, and then we can discuss other changes.

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nils
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Re: Perma-saving items

Post by nils » 03 Dec 2019 21:28

Updates?
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

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