Talking the talk..

Discuss general game topics or anything else that doesn't fit in the other forums
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Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1536
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Talking the talk..

Post by Amberlee » 19 Jul 2021 13:47

Zhar wrote:
19 Jul 2021 12:58
Yes. Darkness has been changed to binary system some time ago because multiple levels were being abused too much. Now you either see in the dark or not, regardless of how dark it is.

I guess we should also remove pronounced and intense dark vision imbues as they make no sense (perhaps remove dark vision from imbuement list altogether so guilds that provide one are more valuable).
Why remove it?
Just make pronounced see invis and intense see both darkness and invis?
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Nerull
Wizard
Posts: 164
Joined: 05 Jul 2014 23:24

Re: Talking the talk..

Post by Nerull » 19 Jul 2021 14:44

Amberlee wrote:
19 Jul 2021 13:47
Zhar wrote:
19 Jul 2021 12:58
Yes. Darkness has been changed to binary system some time ago because multiple levels were being abused too much. Now you either see in the dark or not, regardless of how dark it is.

I guess we should also remove pronounced and intense dark vision imbues as they make no sense (perhaps remove dark vision from imbuement list altogether so guilds that provide one are more valuable).
Why remove it?
Just make pronounced see invis and intense see both darkness and invis?
I think he also wants to cull the pve-aspect of it - darkness vs npc teams.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1536
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Talking the talk..

Post by Amberlee » 19 Jul 2021 15:42

Nerull wrote:
19 Jul 2021 14:44
Amberlee wrote:
19 Jul 2021 13:47
Zhar wrote:
19 Jul 2021 12:58
Yes. Darkness has been changed to binary system some time ago because multiple levels were being abused too much. Now you either see in the dark or not, regardless of how dark it is.

I guess we should also remove pronounced and intense dark vision imbues as they make no sense (perhaps remove dark vision from imbuement list altogether so guilds that provide one are more valuable).
Why remove it?
Just make pronounced see invis and intense see both darkness and invis?
I think he also wants to cull the pve-aspect of it - darkness vs npc teams.
Of course he does.
Which is short sighted at best.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Zhar
Wizard
Posts: 1027
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Talking the talk..

Post by Zhar » 20 Jul 2021 11:29

The thing is, guilds that have access to dark vision are few and far between and they pay tax for such spells/abilities. Granting everyone easy access to it seems unfair in my opinion, seeing how you already have items that grant it (with associated opportunity cost of sacrificing AC for darkvision etc.).

Perhaps a good idea would be to remove both dark vision AND darkness from imbuements and replacing it with other skills/effects instead. Just some food for thought that's worth a discussion I think.

Personally I don't mind if people use darkvis + darkness combo in PvE but I do mind when almost everyone is doing it. Typically this was reserved for specific guilds, usually to compensate for their lack of combat abilities or for thematic reasons.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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OgreToyBoy
Champion
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Joined: 05 Mar 2010 11:36

Re: Talking the talk..

Post by OgreToyBoy » 20 Jul 2021 13:02

Is no quick fix to this, not sure I agree on only a very few guilds have darkvision. Should it be removed for the rest that ability would have to be re-balanced for these few guilds.
Best part of darkness is the possibility to fight 1vs1, is how smallfry can fight in areas far beyond what their abilities would allow.
But in the big-xp areas such tactic shouldn't be possible. Just the same as I think npc's should always assist their friends in these areas no matter the size of the players involved.
The big danger with the new white hit system are when fighting multiple opponents, to allow only some members of specific guilds a way to bypass it should cost a LOT when it comes to tax.
As it is not that way today we may as well just keep the current imbuements and instead give our heroes in the xp-areas some torches, glowstones or whatever to give them the ability to negate darkness more thematically correct if they are of the wrong race.

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nils
Hero
Posts: 384
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

Re: Talking the talk..

Post by nils » 20 Jul 2021 14:11

I was pointing at a trend, and how this trend goes directly against recruiting/keeping (new) players playing. I don't really care if the Dunlendings see in the dark or not, and I get why the wizard made them see in the dark instead of giving them high blindfighting skill, but let's not go further down conspiracy road..

Why you all seem to be of the mind that teaming with newbies neccessarily have to be purely altruistic and at the expense of your own progression is.. confusing to me.

Brute? Come on.
"If you want"? Fuck off.

Part of being a good team leader is being able to protect your team/keep your team out of harms way, thereby freeing the situation up for casual convo, sharing of information and/or building relations WHILE everyone benefits from doing it together, rather than individually. Most of the "stayers" are big myths or will inevitably become big myths. Don't make US grind ant-hills out of the goodness of our hearts when a fanta during optimal conditions take 12-18 hours (without team teleport) just to try and make a newbie stick around. Enable us, don't fight us. Jeez!


As for darkness, see:
nils wrote:
18 Jul 2021 15:59
Now we can argue the moral challenges of using it, the masochism and poor sportsmanship displayed further up, or the availability of items needed to successfully apply it, but I think that deserves its' own thread.
Please go somewhere else to discuss the existence of a tactic that's been around for over 20 years and stop derailing my thread. Thank you.
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

Raelle
Great Adventurer
Posts: 160
Joined: 18 Jul 2017 19:31

Re: Talking the talk..

Post by Raelle » 20 Jul 2021 23:58

nils wrote:
20 Jul 2021 14:11
Don't make US grind ant-hills out of the goodness of our hearts when a fanta during optimal conditions take 12-18 hours (without team teleport) just to try and make a newbie stick around.
I think the real issue is wizards trying to make grinding more interesting/challenging in a game where a lot of players prefer low-risk script-grinding.
Is the problem the wizards or the players? Or the game that's set up, intentionally or otherwise, to encourage eternal grinding?

zizuph
Wizard
Posts: 1
Joined: 17 Jun 2021 01:52

Re: Talking the talk..

Post by zizuph » 22 Jul 2021 23:04

Zhar wrote:
19 Jul 2021 12:58
Yes. Darkness has been changed to binary system some time ago because multiple levels were being abused too much. Now you either see in the dark or not, regardless of how dark it is.

I guess we should also remove pronounced and intense dark vision imbues as they make no sense (perhaps remove dark vision from imbuement list altogether so guilds that provide one are more valuable).
I don't think that this framing is fair to players. "abused too much"? The benefits of leveraging darkness in combat have been well known for 25 years. What you are really saying here is players were able to leverage darkness in more places, other people did not like it, and so the mechanics of darkvision were changed so that this benefit was taken away from those players. This change likely had a miniscule impact on PvP, and penalized those that pay for darkvision.

Darkvision (and blindfighting) are taxed, and then the benefits of them are regularly coded against. Is the tax for them not high enough? Is the advantage from blinding your opponent too big? I highly doubt that the AoBs over the last two decades didn't think about these questions before.

WIth that same logic, brawl-blinding opponents should be banned, since the brawl works on everyone regardless of their darkvision. This is another example where a guild got a darkfighting advantage, and then wizards over the years have modified their NPCs where they didn't like that advantage and coded to prevent it. This lead to a miserable experience for the rangers.

We should acknowledge that this technique is well known, and the benefits (fighting NPCs one by one, getting hit less, hitting more often) are also very well known. If players pay tax for it, then they should reap the benefits. If an NPC can't justify the thematic darkvision, they shouldn't have it. If you don't like the balance implications on tax or benefit, that's the AoB job to resolve, not individual wizards.

But please be careful when using the phrase "abused". That is a phrasing that demonizes a group of players. They used a legitimate, well known tactic, and you (and some others) simply didn't like that they got that benefit. Abuse has nothing to do with it. Save that phrase for when there is an actual bug exploit.

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Zhar
Wizard
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Talking the talk..

Post by Zhar » 23 Jul 2021 11:08

I guess the darkness talk should be split into its own separate thread (@Cherek, help!).

I admit that the wording on my part was wrong. By abuse I didn't mean some exploit but rather how prevalent it has become. It could be considered smart play as it lets you fight enemies you'd not be able to defeat without it and this strategy has been present for over two decades but before the imbuements you actually had to be in a guild that gave you dark vision/darkness and/or get specific items. Still doable but the resources required to pull off the combo were spread more thinly.

Also, blind and darkness are not the same thing (I don't want to go over the details in public). You can still be blinded even if you have dark vision (I know at least 2 instances where this is true, not sure if every blinding effect follows the same formula, I think this should be standardized but it's for AoB).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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