Just curious

[Freya]

is it just me who find it weird that, when we have so many people complaining on how well Dragon Order members tank, and how it effects game balance(having titans tank areas myths cannot and then growing out of proportion), that wizards give Neidar the ability to tank just as good/if not better?


I have to say I think its weird that the same misstake is being made again, creating super tankers effects the game on a much bigger scale than people think, how many myths would we have today if DO's had not been recoded and spawned out 10 myths(being DO's)and prolly 10-15 other myths through teaming with DO's ?


Or maybe its just me who find this kind of changes as negative ones?
Sure new guilds needs to be tweaked a bit before they fit into the game,
but it seems weird that such a big flaw is being overlooked once again.

And sure I am biased as I do not like any neidars, but at the same time, I dont like DO's tanking
abilities much either, as I think it just means people will start roboticing behind Neidars to
grow huge(just like people have done for years behind DO's)

[Rhynox]

The idea of splitting guilds into specialists and generalists isn't bad. If you want to do a little of everything, you go for a generalist, if you want to specialize in something and require other generalists or specialists to cover your weak points, you choose a specialist. It is demonstrated that a neidar alone, while good at tanking and regardless of layman guild, will not be able to defeat certain foes or teams that others are (Barash-gund, Ashburz, Burzum, Verminaard, Mergula, yeti, etc), just like a calian alone would never be able to defeat foes neidars can. A monk, after a determined size, is able to defeat a larger amount of foes than a neidar (at least, it used to be that way).

For years the neidars were called a dwarven clone of the gladiators, but without any obvious advantage. In the ten years I have been there, I remember every guild modification that was done, and none could be called an "upgrade". So, I kind of expected many people to be surprised with the modifications, because it would make us much more visible. Maybe many don't remember, but the neidars were in most of the wars against the dragonarmies, even though we were considered good team "fillers".

I don't think strange that the neidars are now the tank specialists. I have always thought that a dwarf-only guild specialized in tanking would make much more sense than a monk guild. Maybe we could have been given extra strength and turned into a heavy damaging but really slow guild like the ogres. Before the balance, we were a generalist guild, able to play defense and offense, and not excelling in either.

What makes the monks special is not wearing two shields, but plexus. If you remove plexus from monks, they turn from excellent tankers to average combatants. Why a monk can handle Terel trolls? Because he can keep the three trolls stunned for most of the battle, something no other guild can. And we know that a stun foe cannot damage. Truly, a monk does bad damage and goes down pretty fast even against a neidar (due the damage benefits of using a weapon against bare hands), but plexus is what turns the battle. I don't think the monks are considered a tanking specialist, but instead a stunning specialist, which in time translates into great tankers. It is similar to guilds with very high evasion skills, they are dodge specialists, which translates into great tankers.

In other words, for years the monks have been considered the best tankers because of their stun abilities, not because they were able to resist hits better than other guilds.

Now, suppose the monks stay the way they are, but plexus is updated to run on the new stun code, which makes sure you can't keep an opponent stunned forever. Then the monk that now can keep all three Terel trolls stunned will notice that the first plexus enters, but the second does only damage, the third hits, the fourth and five only do damage, etc. Even with the same equipment and skills, they will suddenly turn into a generalist guild with a better stun average than, say, a shieldbearer, but with the same restrictions. Whereas a shieldbearer can keep a similar sized foe stunned for a maximum of 12-15 seconds per minute without losing attacking capabilities, a monk would be able to do it for half a minute, while before they were able to keep it for 40 or 50 seconds.

A neidar doesn't make growing faster, though. It is not that we give a 2x bonus experience to our members. Pharaxes and Alorrana grew together, just like Zin and Didelith, Barin and Didelith, Xar and Stiel, Torwin and Galadur, etc, etc, etc. There are very few who can actually grow alone, as it takes longer and is usually harder.

I am against idlers, though. I drop them at a common room when they don't answer in my team, and I never pick up people who are going to spend more time idling than playing. I wouldn't mind some idlers being zapped, either. However, it is something that is pretty hard to change, but what can you do? Maybe downgrade the experience the more time you spend killing to either cap the growth per day, force them to move to another area leaving the previous one to another team, forcing the team to regroup with different members...? If Irk is able to grind for 14 hours per day and get over one fantastic of progress thanks to calians who can also grind for 14 hours, let it be. I cannot do that, and apparently neither you cannot, if he can do that, he deserves the size he got.

As a side note, I was already a myth by the time the balance redid us. It is not as suddenly I pumped from hero to myth with new skills. As I like to say, a character over a thousand days old and 10 years of active gaming is bound to grow regardless of the multiple times it died or stopped playing. It is inevitable

[Ilrahil]

When I was a monk I plexed one opponent at a time and still tore through Qualinost and Terel trolls taking minimal damage at high champ.

[Rhynox]

I have seen Seren fighting three trolls at the same time, being that in Terel or Mithas, never getting much damage because of having them all plexed. And when we went to Mithas with Adriel and others, she would fare well in the first battles, but her tanking started decaying afterwards.

It is something we talked about before, those monks that actually learn what are the best clothes they can use, what is the karma and how to effectively build and use it, get the most benefits. Whether those benefits are outrageous or fair for the time and amount of preparation needed, is a balance matter.

Note that no neidar below myth would ever be able to clean the Terel troll caves without high quality equipment (including a crystal axe or a bloody club), herbs for healing and lots of booze. And the only times I tried the elves in Qualinesti (scavenging) without a ranger next to me healing I could have not killed even a single team (surprised the hell out of me how evils can do them while they hurt me so bad).

In other words, the neidars would never be able to match a monk in terms of damage output, even if we can do it in terms of defense.

[Ilrahil]

I feel like Adriel is a bit of conundrum as a Monk that's a myth because of low dexterity that dwarves have. Its still a powerful part of combat aid. However if you do not fill yourself with karma as a monk you will take more damage because your DPS is really low.

But for the prepared monk those things are easy to do.

Honestly going up against a Neidar nowadays though is just futile. The trap we laid for Irk took 7 of us the fight lasted a good 30-45 seconds with high DPS and he still managed to escape. Fought Darkaan and Logg with some AA's the one day and its just pointless. Without a concrete way to hold them in a room you won't kill them unless they are afk or just overconfident. To many blows that should do damage are deadened on impact.

As to your problems in Qualinost... I'd go with its the same as Adriel in monks. Low dex from dwarves... its key there to have high dex.

[Laurel]

there's guilds that have not been recoded at all (in line with current recode approach) ...
I kind of envy you for your discussion of "how many teams/rooms of cows/elves/trolls" some decently sized monks/AAs/Neidars/etc. can solo/tank/etc.

btw. please remember to report any Ranger that has been healing you when you were killing Qualinost elves ... kind of like the Ranger Apprentice that helped an Angmarim wear his suit of shining armour recently ...

[Rhynox]

Irk's case is an extreme case which is the exception and not the rule. If you were to catch him again in such trap, now knowing better how block and quake interact, I am sure you will have not the same problems. I think it is a similar case when compared to Xar. A ranger alone does little damage, however he is so big that he actually deals as much damage as an ogre without their penalties. So, should ranger damage and healing be downgraded to make Xar less effective (at the same time punishing all the smaller members with even more penalties), or should the abilities be capped (punishing Xar and any ranger that is able to spend several hours per day during a dozen years, when we are looking for active players)?

This is a problem that is bound to happen when you don't implement caps since the beginning, where some players are able to play for 24/7 while others can only play a few minutes per week. Any player can grind a myth in a few weeks with the right company, equipment and time. Irk is invincible now according to your point of view. And by year's end, after he has spent 5 more months of 14 hours of grinding per day, he will be even bigger. It is the same that happened when we had to face Saya, someone who was able to grind with characters in all the powerful guilds, and that was completely unfair to fight. Personally, as long as these monsters (in terms of size) remain controlled, the game balance isn't broken. If they start hunting and killing, it is when measures are needed to be taken. In other words, they grow so big that they alienate themselves from the game. I wish I could have a character twice Rhynox' size so that I can forge without having to worry about whether people bring a team to kill him, but that won't happen.

The same way we think going against angmarins is futile, a team of neidars can't do damage fast enough to kill one. In fact, the only times enemies die is when they are overconfident and actually look for a battle (for example, when ambushing Irk and his calian friends). If Irk and the calians were actively hunting for angmarins, I am sure they would not be as successful as when the angmarins actually hunt them. A neidar team scouting the plains isn't risky for a soldier trying to conquer the area, unless he gets tired (which is basically what you say, a way to keep someone in the room).

And Laurel, if I find any benefit in reporting a ranger, I would do so, but only if I believe so. Neidars don't think everything is white and black like rangers, so we find natural to have a ranger friend healing you while you battle, regardless of who you are battling. Besides, we don't have a list of all the rules rangers must follow (actually, we don't care about them), we follow our common sense, which tells us that healing us is fine

[Trutblemma]

Even with the same equipment and skills, they will suddenly turn into a generalist guild with a better stun average than, say, a shieldbearer, but with the same restrictions. Whereas a shieldbearer can keep a similar sized foe stunned for a maximum of 12-15 seconds per minute without losing attacking capabilities, a monk would be able to do it for half a minute, while before they were able to keep it for 40 or 50 seconds.

So DO would be useless, a somewhat pumped up layman guild without any bite at all. Could might as well turn it into an alternitive for the Cadets. I guess it's good for the young ones to have more options before they chose a grown up guild

Oh! And Adriel would get a new title too, principal

[OgreToyBoy]

Insanely sized players always were controlled by the critical-hit factor.
Now you can grind all day long and never worry about that tiny enemy who
pummel you with a supercharged fist of death.
With the recent death penalty changes I'd say critical hits should be something
to fear once more.
There will always be one guild that is considered better than others, Rhynox keep
referring to an incident where I as almost champion defeated Logg when he had
the top gear. I've not mentioned I had something at that time which no other Ogre
ever had or ever will have in their possession. The item in question was a cloak
which was incorrectly spawned by our smith in the guildhall. I got to keep it for
the duration and it was more of coincidence I was attacked by Logg and decided
to try and duke it out.
After my recent change to Gladiators I can only say that guild is either broken or
something is really weird. Can't kill shit but I hope it will get better.

[Alorrana]

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