Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

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Freya

Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Freya » 16 Jul 2010 14:27

Rhynox,


While I see the points you are trying to make, I do not agree with them.
I have no issues with having guilds specialising in diffrent areas,
I just think there has to be limits to how well they specialize in it.


To me a titan tanking areas such Mithas/Terel trolls/Icewall/Qualinosti
without breaking a sweat is a sign that something is wrong with the balance
of things. And this being without taking much damage at all, being able to
take out the entire area none stop. Sure they do not do it alone, but in a
team of 2-3, hell I cannot even tank those areas none stop, with sup guru
defence/parry and being what 5 mortal lvls above? To me thats flawed.


And I do not buy it that a Neidar cannot take down say Barash or Ashburz
on their own, I am sure that a Neidar with the right equipment/herbs/items
could take him down, sure it would take a long time, but they would still
be able to do it.

As for you defending Neidars tanking abilities by saying DO's are better etc
well, comparing yourself to one of the most inbalanced guilds in the game ever
does not make your tanking abilities less unbalanced ;)


If you ask me, it should require at least someone of legend size to be able
to tank that well in those areas, considering the insane amount of damage
these npcs deal out.




Also saying that if Irk can grind for 14 hours a day he deserves his size,
well the issue here is rather, why should Irk be allowed to go on robotic
triggers behind friends for 8 hours out of those 14 hours to grow huge?


I think wizards are not doing a very good job with chasing scipters at all,
sure at first they caught a couple of the most obvious ones, yet when was
the last time they caught anyone?
I know of a at least handful of people who scripts behind friends for hours
while they are at work etc, and sure they are semi-attentive at times, but
I would still say that the majority of their gaming is done through triggers
without having any clue whats going on. Unless their friends IM them through
MSN/Yahoo/Skype.

I think the Admin needs to change their tactics when it comes to looking for
scripters cause what they are doing now obviously isnt catching people who
are cheating.


Irk, Aihth,Morg are some of the more obvious cases of roboting behind eachother.

In the past Seren/Rage did it for months and months without catching any atttention
whatsoever.


So I have to ask, is it just coincidence or is it about knowing the right wizards
so you do not get accused of scripting?

Laurel

Re: Just curious

Post by Laurel » 16 Jul 2010 15:40

Which wizards were involved in giving out information to certain individuals, that q-exp modifier has been increased (and later decreased again, after some later-huge chars were created)? Some people who created alts back then were sure lucky, but others abused it being quite aware of the change.

I'd still like my puppet's q-exp modifier to be recalculated to match those chars, rather than having to spend X-hours/days/weeks/months/years MORE time grinding to get to the same size ... and still be behind in terms of possible growth.

Freya

Re: Just curious

Post by Freya » 16 Jul 2010 15:51

Laurel wrote:Which wizards were involved in giving out information to certain individuals, that q-exp modifier has been increased (and later decreased again, after some later-huge chars were created)? Some people who created alts back then were sure lucky, but others abused it being quite aware of the change.

I'd still like my puppet's q-exp modifier to be recalculated to match those chars, rather than having to spend X-hours/days/weeks/months/years MORE time grinding to get to the same size ... and still be behind in terms of possible growth.

This really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Unless your accusing Irk of knowing the modifier was raised and that he cheated ;)

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petros
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Re: Just curious

Post by petros » 16 Jul 2010 15:53

Keep it civil. Accusations against other players are not helpful.

Freya

Re: Just curious

Post by Freya » 16 Jul 2010 17:47

petros wrote:Keep it civil. Accusations against other players are not helpful.

While accusations might not be helpful for the players pointed out, perhaps its needed to bring it
up in a forum such as this for the people in charge to take a closer look?

And its not like everyone doesnt know that these players are running around on robotics
behind their friends for hours and hours.

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petros
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Re: Just curious

Post by petros » 16 Jul 2010 17:53

I mean accusations are not helpful for this forum. What are you trying to accomplish here? If you want to bring something to the attention of those in charge, send a mail in game. The policy on botting is pretty clear. If you're at your terminal, you are ok. If you're not, it's not ok. If you suspect someone of not being at the terminal, then a simple mail to the AoP or myself and we can verify it.

Rhynox
Titan
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 03:48
Location: Departed from here. Meet at Genesis!

Re: Just curious

Post by Rhynox » 16 Jul 2010 18:34

Freya wrote:To me a titan tanking areas such Mithas/Terel trolls/Icewall/Qualinosti
without breaking a sweat is a sign that something is wrong with the balance
of things.
We agree here, no doubt. However, I would like Genesis to be more than just "templates", where anyone above myth, no matter the guild, can tank in any area.
Freya wrote:And I do not buy it that a Neidar cannot take down say Barash or Ashburz
on their own, I am sure that a Neidar with the right equipment/herbs/items
could take him down, sure it would take a long time, but they would still
be able to do it.
Barash does immense damage, especially with the bloody club. I can give him one or two levels of damage before I wimp out. Even with herbs, he does too much damage for any neidar to handle, even with best equipment. Ashburz goes down, yes, but he has healing, and we don't do enough damage to kill him before he heals. Months ago I fought him for 45 minutes, dropping to hurt at worst. However, the maximum damage I did to him was very hurt, he would always heal before taking him down to bad shape. One could say resisting a 45 minute fight is too much, but it makes clear that our limit is not the damage we can receive, but the one we can deal. I have tried almost every myth or bigger creature, and the ones that heal (like Ashburz, Thorr-kan, etc) are the most difficult ones.
Freya wrote:Also saying that if Irk can grind for 14 hours a day he deserves his size,
well the issue here is rather, why should Irk be allowed to go on robotic
triggers behind friends for 8 hours out of those 14 hours to grow huge?
Well, this is another issue. You used to mess with Poet's triggers, just like Ilrahil. I know there are some measures, but whatever you implement, it is very hard to catch a scripter. You cannot have a wizard per player tracking every movement.

Once Palmer suggested a way to catch smiths roboting: if the time forging every item was constant (finishing an item, taking new goods, forging the new one, etc), we could assume he is using triggers. If he kept doing the same for a long time, it could be assumed to be a bot. However, what is considered roboting? If you are watching a movie on the computer while the character is being played with triggers, is it roboting? If a wizard pounces (Stern used to drop by randomly while I was forging, almost every day, to chat about anything), you can reply immediately if you are watching one. And Gorboth mentioned anything your client can do is legal (like autohunting).

It is an interesting subject to study, especially as we are few and know each other pretty well.

Ilrahil

Re: Just curious

Post by Ilrahil » 16 Jul 2010 20:05

petros wrote:I mean accusations are not helpful for this forum. What are you trying to accomplish here? If you want to bring something to the attention of those in charge, send a mail in game. The policy on botting is pretty clear. If you're at your terminal, you are ok. If you're not, it's not ok. If you suspect someone of not being at the terminal, then a simple mail to the AoP or myself and we can verify it.
Holy hijack, but I did mail the Arch something in regards to cheating. A player using one character to obtain weapons that they could take out the nazgul with, using another character to cleanse his friends during the fight, and then using the flaming black broadsword in combat with yet another character to grow, and I was told there was no evidence to back it up and I should stop worrying about it.

As to bots, yes occasionally players can punish them themselves as what we did to Poet and getting his gear, but it does not change the fact that botters are still very heavy in the game and they keep doing it. My favorite was as a monk I was forbidden from pfighting and Irk, Yanus etc... would walk in, kill through the room I was in not saying a word and then wonder why I came into the next room or two all mad. One time excusable, but then it kept repeating itself over and over. And its frustrating when botters go through an area you are in. Extremely frustrating.

Budwise
Wanderer
Posts: 62
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Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Budwise » 16 Jul 2010 22:25

Guess it won't happen but clients should be banned IMHO.

Rhynox
Titan
Posts: 493
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 03:48
Location: Departed from here. Meet at Genesis!

Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Rhynox » 16 Jul 2010 22:38

The game is way too complex to forbid clients. And they are pretty hard to detect because, for all intents, the bot does the same the human does.

Maybe apply hidden penalties, for example, if a player is found botting make him lose experience instead of gain it (at the same time, compute it as progress). So that he thinks he got a very good progress but instead he just lost very good progress of experience.

If a player reports someone for botting, all his experience should be frozen until investigated. However, it would require active wizards checking the reports and following the player and, personally, I prefer them working on more important things.

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