Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

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Recoba
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Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Recoba » 20 Jul 2010 12:06

It is also interesting to note that Genesis continued to attract significant numbers of new players for years after the stat changes and when I started playing (after the stat changes) there were regularly 100+ people in the game. Not exactly the doomesday scenario that people keep threatening. Over the years far more people left Genesis because they couldn't keep up with the compulsive grinders then the number of people that stayed so they could grind compulsively.
This is true.

Bertram
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Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Bertram » 20 Jul 2010 14:20

fulgrim wrote:
Laurel wrote:
Freya wrote:I do ask though, who wants to cap the stat cap at titan? And what should everyone above titan do?

Just smile and say, hey throw away my 15 years of playing the game so you can reach it in 2 months
actually titan can be reached easily (without being dragged to idle-exp by teams) within a significantly shorter time than 2 months without extensive gaming (i.e. few hours daily, less than 5 days weekly)
How can you say that!?

Only a player who knows a lot of quests and has extensive experience of Genesis could reach Titan within those hours you mention.

I've seen many times Laurel accomplished such thing while being in different guilds, he is kind of specialist in this area so you can believe him. Though it is not possible for a new player who comes to this realm without any konowledge of the game.

This connects to one of the problems we are talking about. We have a group of uber experienced players who actually dominated genesis, you can see them on the forum endlessly discussing politics and the stat cap thing. Some of their chars got ridiculously big as they grown for 10 years or more. So a new player as soon as he realizes how huge the gap is, must answer the question: do I want to play next 10 years only to be closer in size to these huge chars around? Well, some say the size is not everything... so if it's not then why not do the stat cap? On the other hand if the size is after all the most important thing for some players then don't be suprised if the player base won't grow.

Laurel

Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Laurel » 20 Jul 2010 15:26

it's somewhat strange to compare creating new chars to killing an old char off to extr pacifistic ... or? :)

anyways - I've seen chars that reached hero within a few weeks of questing/grinding ALONE

only cause you (some of you) are not able to do it, doesn't mean it's impossible or hard to achieve - maybe you got the skillset suited better for something else ...

best example (most of you hate) is Poet and his endless alts/brothers/girlfriends/buddies/etc. - this guys is a master in pulling big chars out of his butt while some of you complain about problems of your ONLY char ... doesn't mean I like his way of playing Gen, but he's pretty close to winning it anyway :lol: :twisted:

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Kitriana
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Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Kitriana » 20 Jul 2010 15:40

Laurel -

You're giving an example of someone who knows Genesis. I think we're trying to point to new players who have started new characters. I think its pretty impossible for a new player to Genesis to get to hero alone in 2 weeks without significant help with quests, hints and general understanding of game mechanics.
If something I wrote sounds confusing ... assume you misunderstood it.

Laurel

Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Laurel » 20 Jul 2010 15:56

agreed to that, Kitriana - I don't deny it and never stated that for example my GF (who asked me what the f*ck I am typing there and tried Gen some) would be able to beat in that regard a years-old Gen player who doesn't find it problematic to grow to hero by questing/grinding within a few weeks, doing great cash on the way :lol: :twisted:

my statement was that it IS possible (with some requirements), to back up Freya's statement about possibilities of reaching titan fairly quick

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Tive
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Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Tive » 20 Jul 2010 18:32

fulgrim wrote:
Budwise wrote: So I can see why people would go robo on the whole thing if theres 10.000 cows to be killed
before your stats budge.
Where are these cows!?!? Are they good xp!?!?!
I think there are some in Angmar guild :P
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fulgrim
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Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by fulgrim » 20 Jul 2010 20:11

Laurel wrote:it's somewhat strange to compare creating new chars to killing an old char off to extr pacifistic ... or? :)

anyways - I've seen chars that reached hero within a few weeks of questing/grinding ALONE

only cause you (some of you) are not able to do it, doesn't mean it's impossible or hard to achieve - maybe you got the skillset suited better for something else ...

best example (most of you hate) is Poet and his endless alts/brothers/girlfriends/buddies/etc. - this guys is a master in pulling big chars out of his butt while some of you complain about problems of your ONLY char ... doesn't mean I like his way of playing Gen, but he's pretty close to winning it anyway :lol: :twisted:
I still don't believe the people who did that didn't have quest lists. I think almost any player could reach hero in a few weeks or much less even, if they had enough quest walk-throughs and just non-stop quested and grinded all the time when awake. There is nothing special about that.

Back in the days when there weren't super-grinders like Gont for example and quest cheating was much more frowned upon and less widespread, most players took months to reach champion (i.e. Rising Hero).
Even the very dedicated players were much, much smaller on average. For instance it was thought that the goblins who have the HSC etc. required two or three "big characters" to be defeated. Nowadays your average character can solo them almost without any risk whatsoever.

So cheating (or whatever you want to call it, I don't think its so serious any more) and inflation in good grinding spots is what makes you able to do this. In the old days the places that were somewhat good for grinding like LoD for instance were almost always occupied by other players or cleaned out all the time.
If there were 100+ players on even with the current number uber-weapons and uber-grinders, nobody would be able to reach hero in weeks, because there would not be enough monsters to go around.

It would be interesting to know what it means to "win" Genesis.

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Earth
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Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Earth » 21 Jul 2010 00:53

fulgrim wrote:It would be interesting to know what it means to "win" Genesis.
Winning Genesis is really all up to you.

Be the biggest and the baddest [or goodest ;)]
Make and keep many friends
Become the RP master
Become the best smith/gardener/equipment gatherer/pker/...
Kill time and wind down from RL stuff.

You win everytime you gain some kind of enjoyment while playing Genesis, the nice things is that the admin doesn't really dictate how you should do that.

Botting may take the tedious work out of the repetitive aspects of the game for some, while others may chose not to use any triggers at all. Do whatever suits you, I think that's the point.

Though it's probably ok to be inattentive here and there while you take a phone call or something, but don't bot and spend hours inattentive while your character causes havoc all over the place. I think the admin takes a realistic view in the enforcement of this rule, but it's hard to argue that you are having fun if you are botting and scripting for hours. Bots can also enhance things in the game.

I remember Durga...he had some awesome scripts which allowed for people to buy and sell herbs from him like a mobile herbalist. Though some purists say that this shouldn't be done, I believe that he mostly enhanced the game when he was around since he was attentive while this was done...

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Rhaegar
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Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Rhaegar » 21 Jul 2010 20:03

fulgrim wrote: Back in the days when there weren't super-grinders like Gont for example and quest cheating was much more frowned upon and less widespread, most players took months to reach champion (i.e. Rising Hero).
I'd like to clarify some things.

1. Old champion is the new veteran (I know it best, the change occured exactly 1 day after my char reached old champion and I woke up as veteran on the next day - and was wondering how the hell did I die for a good few minutes...).

2. It took some time to get there with or without the quest solutions (qinfo does help a lot, but back then there wasn't as much inclination to do the quests, people were constantly running in very brutal-somewhat violent brute range even on smaller levels and dying wasn't so frowned upon - even though the death penalty was much bigger), there was no gear like today (hello SoH, putting EH into the pits of nostalgia, uber weapons no one ever dreamt about and armours that can withstand even the mightiest of blows etc.) and no exp-rich areas (the first one was probably Trollshaws, but it got nerfed rather fast. Before that people went to Holm, LoD, Troll - for the very brave and big teams - and Goblin caves in Terel or Kabal/Drakmere as evil).

3. ON TOPIC: I am using triggers since I first got my shell account, I confess, they make my life much easier and don't restrict me to the lousy 30 aliases or so. I've never used hunting triggers in my life, I did use like 4 speedpaths (from drakmere pier to the city and back, etc. simple but lengthy travels for the most part).
I also did use (and still am to some extent) auto-smithing and auto-herbing macros, but whenever I turn them on, I'm still looking at the screen (made them primarily to prevent wrist injury and keyboard damage from constant repetition of the same characters over and over again).
I also confess that sometimes when I'm in team I'm not looking at the screen, this periods of time usually don't last long (we all need to go afk unexpectedly from time to time) and if I'm going to be afk longer than 10 minutes I am usually asking the team to leave me somewhere and continue without me.

May Teh Haxor Skriptor watch over you!
I fear no evil for I am fear incarnate.

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Cherek
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Re: Discussion on Botting (Split from Just Curious thread)

Post by Cherek » 24 Jul 2010 21:35

I think the wizards, mostly Gorboth I guess, simply need to make up his mind and decide what type of game we are going to have. I feel the current admin tries very hard to make the game fun for all types of players. While this is a good intention, I dont think it's gonna work. Gotta chose a path at some point.

A stap cap has pro's and con's.

Me, I think the game needs to change from a game where mindless botting and grinding is the theme, to a game where interaction, roleplay and conflict is the main theme.

So if I was in charge I'd cap stats and titles around champion (todays champion), but still reward grinding with something else much less important, but still useful to the myths. Like abilitity to train skills above sup guru. Perhaps one sublevel or so... or something. To make grinding still useful for those who wish, but far from needed. I'd then focus ALL efforts on bringing in new players and not code one more single thing before we have 100 players in average.

Yes, people would leave. Thats too bad, but I dont think it would be the end for the game. We're gonna need the truly new players. If some oldies leave it doesnt matter that much, eventually they'll leave anyway and without new players the game WILL die. Without the old ones the game will just die a little bit faster and I'd take that risk.

A cap would most likely remove the need to bot for the most part, and it would even the playingfield, and it would most likely get players to focus more on RP/pvp and interaction instead of grinding.

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