Imbuements Imminent?

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Recoba
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Re: Imbuements Imminent?

Post by Recoba » 08 Oct 2010 15:07

Cherek wrote:Chanele: I just assumed there will be some type of message when you kill the foe? But its a good point. Having to examine all the loot of every kill sounds.... incredibly boring... The Diablo game use that nice sound when something good drops, and they got different color if I dont remember wrong. Maybe we will have something similar?

About imbuements,
While I like the idea, I am too a bit worried it'll turn into a bot-mania, and I just dont see how it could revolutionize grinding and make it more fun? Sounds kinda the opposite to me...?

It sounds a bit similar to collecting skulls. Killing many small enemies will give you a greater chance of finding more imbuements. Just like killing many small foes gives you more SPH (skulls per hour).

Will that really make grinding more fun? I can just see people botting around in otherwise "forgotten" areas with tiny foes, gaining imbuements all day while surfing the web/watching TV etc.

It doesnt sound like something you do in team, it sounds very much alike to other lonely botting-type of tasks like skull-collecting, herbing and forging...

Wow, this turned out to be a more negative note than I had planned, I do like the idea. Really. But I am worried about how it will turn out though, and wanted to voice my concerns about it.

It means something unusual will happen once in a while you are doing your repetitive mass-killing. This is why it makes the game more interesting.

Obviously you can bot and trigger for anything, so that's not the point here at all.

As for visible alerts, the most logical thing for me is if the item just gets an extra adjective added to it. It means you have to keep your eyes open but it won't force you to individually "exa" every single greaves and helm just to not miss the goodies.

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Recoba
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Re: Imbuements Imminent?

Post by Recoba » 08 Oct 2010 15:20

One anti-botting factor here is of course that once in a while you will encounter an intended easy sword-fodder that starts hitting you hard with their imbued weapon. This might mess up your script and even kill you :)

Laurel

Re: Imbuements Imminent?

Post by Laurel » 08 Oct 2010 15:29

so grinding trolls will remain as dull as it is :ugeek:

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gorboth
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Re: Imbuements Imminent?

Post by gorboth » 08 Oct 2010 15:51

Recoba wrote:As for visible alerts, the most logical thing for me is if the item just gets an extra adjective added to it. It means you have to keep your eyes open but it won't force you to individually "exa" every single greaves and helm just to not miss the goodies.
Precisely. What people will be able to do is to set their triggers to recognize the "extra" adjectives and create some meaningful way of telling you "wooo hoo !!"

The at-a-glance aspect of the build is something I consider essential. A simple <exa npc> should do it.

G.
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Rhynox
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Re: Imbuements Imminent?

Post by Rhynox » 09 Oct 2010 05:05

I disagree. If I take the time to pick every piece of armour and weapon dropped by a foe to sminspect them, I should be able to, eventually, get more rewards that someone who has a "get blue-glowing items from corpse" trigger, shouldn't I. Even if I don't do it, a newbie who spends his time looting what others leave in Gont could be able to spot priceless items that were left behind by bots.

Just like there are people who are willing to spend months creating herb maps (and in the end are rewarded by knowing where to herb to obtain them), just like some are willing to spend months forging to be able to create [rather average] armours and weapons, and just like some are willing to spend months examining every Genesis room and are rewarded with secret passages and rare items, so I should be rewarded if I take the time examining each item instead of just picking those "blue glowing" ones, or selling them all together.

It would be interesting if only after you "calm down" after a battle you are able to recognize any special imbuement. In other words, wait 30 seconds to 1 minute after the end of the battle to be able to recognize these special effects. That way those bots will continue to bot, while people actually researching for something more than just experience will be rewarded.

It takes time away from your grinding? Poor you, Chanele.

Just being able to examine a creature and notice if he has something special would be akin to examine a room and notice if there are any healing herb, without needing to be a gardener. You would be rewarding the guy who can kill the fastest, just like the current system rewards more coins and experience to the one who does so.

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Cherek
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Re: Imbuements Imminent?

Post by Cherek » 09 Oct 2010 07:07

Rhynox / Recoba: I like to meet people, and do things togather. And I think this game really needs more "co-op" things to do.

I think imbuements sound alot like another thing that will make people spent more time _alone_. Well I dont have to if I dont want to you say? No, of course not. But if there could be away to make the imbuement system a more social thing, then we would benefit alot I think.

Same with herbing and forging and grinding, but thats not the discussion.

Isnt that what we want? People to act, peole to be awake, people to socialize? If we add more "lonely" acvitivites, I am worried we will get a more lonely world too. But again, I think this is a GOOD idea, I just want to voice my concerns that maybe have not been considered yet. I am sure imbuements could add a level of fun, but if there was a way to encourage people to meet and team, that would be even better. Some type of simple thing that encourages trading? Something fun when you team up and search? Lottery who gets it? More chance of finding imbuements with more "eyes", that is a team bonus? Perhaps?

And I am also worried that tiny creatures will drop as many things as big. Because that means the big characthers could go through the newbie areas killing everything in minutes to gain imbuements. I think killing areas for small people should be for small people. Not for myths who wanna collect things quickly and possibly in a robotic way.

And yes Recoba, you can "bot" most things. But that doesnt mean we should encourage it? If we could have a system that isnt so easily "bottable" thats better, dont you agree? In grinding, I find the big foes where you have to be atleast somewhat active, and somewhat prepared, more fun than mindlessly killing things that never could hurt me. If we can encourage being active and alert to find imbuements, thats good I think.

Which is what Rhynox wants too I think? But "hiding" it in a the description wont make it harder for "botters", it will just add another set of triggers and a lot of spam. And it will make it harder for those who do NOT bot, or perhaps do not know so much about triggers. Those who benefit wont be those you want, but the others. The harder it is to spot in "normal" play, the more triggers people will use... I think you have a good point but I am not sure forcing people to wait is the best way though. I like to explore things too, but to me it just sounds a bit annoying? And it will be yet another thing to encourage botting. Turn on the imbuement bot and go do something else while your char, not you, waits those 30 sec after each kill. I get what you are after. But I think there has to be a better way to reward people who are active.

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Re: Imbuements Imminent?

Post by Rhynox » 09 Oct 2010 08:29

We agree that we want Genesis to be more social. But who said imbuements are to be social? You can't force everything to be social: forging is a lonely thing, and I would hate that I had to bring three people to the forge so that one can pump the bellow, another work the wood, another work the leather and me hit the iron to create a puny axe. Same with herbing, it is a lonely activity, and I am sure herbalists would hate to have to examine each herb between four to recognize it.

Imbuements aren't thought to be social, it won't make it magically appear in an NPC if a team of five attacks him, or if we suddenly hug each other.

This holy war against triggers is getting ridiculous too. Why not just play Typing of the Dead if you want to press keys? Triggers exist, and people with time and knowledge will eventually find a trigger for everything. So, you think a bot can solve everything. Well, let's make it ridiculous: you cannot recognize imbuements, instead you need to locate a sorcerer who may appear randomly anywhere in Genesis, give him the item, and he will tell you if it is enchanted or not. There is no way common grinders or bots can work around it, and those really wanting to play with imbuements will have plenty of challenges to do so.

We don't need to create a game bot unfriendly, because that only makes it human unfriendly as well. They exist, we all know them, and they will continue to bot until they are discovered. Why should all mechanisms in the game have an "anti-bot" feature?

If you want social game go roleplay with Beregond, but I assure you that most of the active players don't want that. They want to solve this with a simple "get X from corpse", which is what Gorboth will be giving them, and is perfectly fine in order to keep them interested. But as I told him several times, there will be a time when he will have to split the playerbase, as he cannot continue to make things "work" for roleplayers, grinders, pfighters, herbalists, smiths, etc. If you need to chat with the NPC to get him to reveal you whether he has an imbued item before attacking, well, let it be and make roleplayers happy. If you need to inspect the item several times with special observation skills, well, let it be and make smiths and monks happy. If you need to disarm the item in order to obtain the imbuement, well, do so and make tinkerers happy. If you make it easy to discover something that is supposed to be uncommon or rare, where everyone has the same opportunity to find something unique but where you need to kill the NPC to obtain it, well, you are giving grinders the advantage since that is what their job is about.

We say grinding is what is killing the game with characters growing non stop, but never consider what is the advantage of "not" grinding. When the "others" will get an advantage compared to them? Until them, you are forced to follow their lead, which is why I am not playing.

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Cherek
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Re: Imbuements Imminent?

Post by Cherek » 09 Oct 2010 09:06

Rhynox: I totally agree with you on alla parts, almost.:)

Maybe imbuements should be a lonely task, but then I do not think we need more of those than we already have.

About botting, what I wanted was just what you say. With clear messages when you "strike an imbuement" it will be easier for everyone to spot them. And easier to set your trigger too. That makes the game more user-friendly. I do not think a waiting period after each kill makes the game user-friendly. With pauses, you'll be more inclined to do something else, and I do think we should encourage active play instead of botting. I do not like the "war on the botters" either, I think scripts are good. If you have read my notes on the subject I think more "scripts" should be included in the game if anything. So that those who cant code also can benefit from more user-friendly gameplay. But, I also think we should encourage players to be active and alert by providing game elements that are fun and requires you to be active and alert. Its a big difference though. Forcning someone to be active and alert is not the same as encouraging. Encouraging means that you get rewarded for being active and alert, and that you also like being active and alert and have fun while doing so. Forcing someone to be active and alert without providing a fun and rewarding reason to do so will have not work at all.

I am not very active when herbing or grinding most times simply because its not very much fun to do so. In my opinion. So I drift away in other windows meanwhile.... and I would say a huge part of the population behave like this, based on what I see. Times when I find it fun is if you have an active team, or if you grind in one ff the few places that do require you to be atleast a little active.

Collecting imbuements are _supposed_ to be a lonely task? Is it supposed to be repetitive task too? You did not say that, but I am worried it will be. A lonely repetitive task. I do not enjoy such things, I actually kinda liked your idea of that random NPC you need to find. Well... obviously not the exaggerated way you suggested... but anyway.

You are very correct that Gorboth and his gang needs to make up their mind what type of players they want. Because you cant get everyone, if you do you will eventually end up with no one because no one will like it. In my experience that usually goes for most commercial games, films, TV-series, books, art etc. Pick your target, and make sure they like it. Dont worry about those who ar not your target. Who is the target of Genesis?

I am worried this will be the lonely repetitive task that grinding alone, herbing alone, and forging alone already is. Yet another thing you do alone, and that you can do while watching TV... . I do think if anything we should focus on encouraging social behavior. There are alot of things you can do alone already.... we need more things we can collect alone? I dont know. I like Genesis for the social aspects, and I like the quests. I dont like grinding to get big, I dont like collecting things. Thats me. Maybe I am not in the target group for Genesis, but I do not think it sounds all that fun. What got me hooked in the past was the active community, the roleplay, socializing, and the politcs. We have less and less of that now sadly.

Anyway, we strayed off topic a little. I still think imbuements is an interesting concept and I hope it wont be this lonely repetitive task people run around and do alone in silence. It probably will though, and maybe it will be atleast more fun than running around alone in silence WITHOUT the imbuements. If so, thats something! (really).

Creed

Re: Imbuements Imminent?

Post by Creed » 11 Oct 2010 09:05

I was hoping that it could be somewhat like in Diablo, as I remember it.

So as if you kill a smaller npc, you might find an imbued item with weak imbuement..

But if you kill the bigger enemies, their stuff are then also better and have better imbuements.
So you would need to combine like 4 or 6 hero-size imbuements, to get 1 legend-size imbuements..
Just to put some size words on them, instead of X power.

It will of course also be better for the big players, and powerplayers... but for the smaller part of Genesis, it will invite to more teaming, so they too can get 1 of the big ones, instead of having to find a whole bunch of the small ones, to get the same effect.

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Cherek
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Re: Imbuements Imminent?

Post by Cherek » 11 Oct 2010 09:42

Creed: Maybe that our design already too, but if not its a good idea!

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