Need for a change

[gorboth]

Everyone,

Please remember - we do NOT discuss numbers that are considered wiz-info here in the forum or in the game. You should all know this. I consider this a good thread with good momentum, so rather than just delete posts I am actually going to go back and edit out all the numbers. (not fun.)

Future posts with numbers will simply be deleted.

Thank you for not doing this anymore,
G.

[Targun]

Gorboth

Just for the record. I took my numbers out of the blue. The 200 and 100 were only because the first one is twice as big than the second one= easy calculations.

[Cherek]

Freya: This wasnt mine or Makfly's suggestion... it was Targun's and we both just agreed it might be a good idea. However it is not something I think is the first thing we should do. First thing should be to get that webpage up and get some new players. Then perhaps.

I think most of you misunderstand the whole thing though. Its not a nerf...

Freya: Would you mind if we scaled up the NPCs in the world to match the current bigger population? So perhaps the Centaurs are as big as todays Terel trolls, and the Terels trolls above that, something you cant do without a bigger team?

Would that be so bad? I think it would make the world more challanging again for many who currently dont find it challenging. The whole idea I think is to make the world more fun for the BIG players. But if none of you want it... its no use of course.

You will still be myths, you will still have three supremes, you will still be as brutal, still be as much bigger than everyone else. The world around you will be bigger though. That is the suggested change. Thats how I understood it anyway, and thats what I was "agreeing" to as a good idea.

But again, if everyone wants to quit just because they get more killing grounds and more challenges... well then its not a good idea perhaps. But I cant see why you would NOT want it? Why dont you want that?

Is it so fun to be able to gather everything yourself, and go to the same terel/mithas/quali killing grounds again and again and again. And yes, many do it by scripts. Would it not be fun if you got some killing areas that actually posed a threat? And other areas that now are "too small" would be worth the effort again?

Anyway, thats what I thought was the idea. If it is indeed meant as a "nerf" so people actually lose stats and mortal titles. Then no, absolutely not. But thats not how I thought it would be...?

[Freya]

Cherek,

thats was allready tried in Terel, and the Admin did not like the experiment(I assume since the scaling npcs are no longer in the game).


I do not mind things becoming more challenging, not at all.
The reason why I started this thread however was to acknowledge
the skewed balance between good/evil guilds.

If we were to make the world bigger and harder to get around in, that
problem would just increase.

Hell I've seen Titan neidars tank things better than I do, both in mithas/qualinosti/terel trolls, and I am one of these so called "super-myths",
yet in my current guildsetup, I am outmatched in damage/tanking/healing
by people 3-4 mortal levels below me.

Unless the wizards acknowledge this as a problem, the only thing I see a upgrade to the world in harder npcs, is that the small evil population will once again dissapear like they did a few years ago.

I am not asking to get the best in everything, but it would be darn sweet to get something at least, right now both Angmar/Dragonarmies are average at best, while goodie guilds excel in everything, it just does not make for good balance to give one side all the fancy toys and the other side nothing.

People say DA's do all these damage and what not, well thats not accurate at all, I get outdamaged by legend knights, hell I prolly get outdamaged by a neidar if we are fighting goblins/trolls/orcs.

[Rhaegar]

thats was allready tried in Terel, and the Admin did not like the experiment(I assume since the scaling npcs are no longer in the game).

Just to clarify things. I believe that the goblins in Terel caves (where enormous white wolf and goblin eldar are) are still scaling.
Especially seeing how I couldn't assist on them and Nirnaeth got destroyed pretty badly.

[Laurel]

back in the days there were also huge chars (in comparison to new ones) like Thunder, Bebop, etc.
I don't think the 10-20 huge chars there are right now would matter if there was 120+ ppl online ...

Back then there were also big myths (champions) who everyone gasped at and we all wished to be as cool as them.

that was what I meant, Cherek & Mak

bring me a horde of true new- and lowbies and I'm pretty sure many of those biggies could be seen dragging "raids" on:
krougs "For Caliana!"
kretans and Dephonian temple "Fellow friends - this priest has a nasty poison! / Let's face the magic of this guard!"
orc-camp "Great adventurers! Now you stay here and try to NOT brown your pants when I come out of this tent fighting a Mage of the Tower!"
wights "Har har har! I brought you sorry adventurers here as sacrifice to my friends - the wights! Har har har!" (move behind smallest team-member, extinguish lights, the wights then say: Stay here, fresh meat!)
Trollshaws "x of here is the commander's room - he could squash you with a single blow and he also blocks the exits!"
gobbo caves "Dear friends - let's face the ugliest of the goblins here now, but bear in mind he can destroy your weapon with a single blow!"
Moria "I hope the commander of this place won't catch us - he is a skilled hunter and his weapon can easily break armours of his enemies!"
Edoras/Pelargir "Ha! Puny humanoids! Experience the wrath of the Dark Lord and his armies!"
Kabal/Kalaman "You goddamn rasist humans! We'll shove you your stupid smiles down your throats with our clubs! Aaaaand we'll rape your princess, har har har!"
dwarf camp "See my dark friends - these are supposed to be 'mighty' dwarves ... they are just dust and air ... and coins! Don't forget their coins!"
etc. etc. etc.

back in the old days Laurel (the BDA) tried to master a JBS on her way through Sparkle; badly enough - she failed when around some real newbie-smallfries ... and killed 1; she then picked him up from the church and took for a raid around Holm (bicorns, trolobies) ... where the smallfry died again; he was in such awe, that he insisted to continue and brought a second real newbie-smallfry for a while as well

[Targun]

I am not insisting very much on the downscale. It was one of the suggestion. However! Perhaps you might want to consider trying the downscale for a week or two, just to see whether you like it or not. Also the discussion about WoW got a little too far in my opinion. We all had some expierience with it at some point, but it's another game. Some solutions from MMORPGS- yes they can be applied to Genesis, developed or serve as a proof that certain approach may work. Though as someone pointed out- it's not about emulating Genesis into WoW, WAR or GW. Genesis has its unique character. For me these are: lore, quests, roleplaying.

I cannot escape the impression that many of the posts prove the thesis about players not actually wanting newcomers. It brings the whole matter to a point where the definiotion of what Genesis is to be, is needed. Either it's a mud you play, treat as a hobby or it's some kind of not very demanding entertainment to fill slowly passing away hours at work. With such a huge gap between new players and old ones. With time someone, who is not familiar with Genesis or muds, would have to sacrifice to join the game of 'big guys', I see no other way to get new players, other than inviting our friends.

It's not like you say Chanele. In the old days todays champion was a huge guy. Now champion is one of the smallest mortal sizes online. And the old champion was wat- an expert? Rising hero. Everyone is a myth or a legend nowdays. These are two different games, noones going to get you xlink new people, unless you do it by yourself. I won't invite my friends, because if I tell someone, yeah there's that game, you'll be able to play after 1,5 year of learning, solving quests and solo play, and then you'll just get scripts to play for you, they'd consider me even bigger retard than they probably do now.

So even though, I do believe that the statement about minority becoming a majority, that now blocks flow of all of other kinds of players to Genesis is a true one.... Perhaps it is its niche. As I said, I do not understand an approach, when one needs other people only to htink how cool I am. And for me if someone wants to solo everything in the game, he can as well ask wizards for an .image file to run the single-player mode on his own machine, but... well, perhaps it's time to decide. Because if the games priority is to get new players, it cannot be done without closing the gap between the current population and newcomers. It cannot be done without the compromises from the current population- which I am quite positive, they would not consider a compromise at all later on. Either you want new people, or keep the majority happy- which is enhance possibilities to grind undisturbed pass the infinity. This is how I see it. Either it is you who wants to play Genesis, or your scripts. Two completely different approaches need to be applied for both solutions.

[Cherek]

Because if the games priority is to get new players, it cannot be done without closing the gap between the current population and newcomers. It cannot be done without the compromises from the current population- which I am quite positive, they would not consider a compromise at all later on. Either you want new people, or keep the majority happy- which is enhance possibilities to grind undisturbed pass the infinity.

Well said Targun, I couldnt agree more. I think almost everyone would enjoy the game more with more players, and I think it would be worth some compromises to get there. If you DONT want more players I really dont mind if you leave. (Ouch! harsh). The question is of course if a scale-down would help or not. Right now, since we barely have any new players, probably not much. But if we do get a more steady stream... or a trickle.... it could help.

But hey like Targun said why not test it?, why not have an "event week" or something? When we try the scale-down and see what happens and then evaluate? I mean we're not that many players, surely we could do such a test for the greater good? If everyone agrees it was a bad idea we just forge it... if not we consider it more seriously. And since the whole community for the moement seem to be in the mood for serious discussions of all sorts of changes and improvements, why not try it?

And Freya I didnt mean "scaling NPCs" but rather a definitey upscale of everything. (But in the form of a downscale of players, but thats exactly the same thing, just a simpler way to do it).

Now... to direct this thread back to what it actually was about...

Freya: Like I said to Alorrana in the "AA sucks" thread, do some investigating then. If you truly want a change you gotta actually try to prove evils are considerably worse off than goodies. I have heard nothing, or encountered nothing in the game, that has convinced me atleast.

BDA and Knights are both recoded guilds, I would it very odd if they would not be properly balanced. If they are not, then its a failure of whoever balanced them. They are two opposing forces in the same domain, coded for war. For me its a nobrainer they would be equally "powerful".

Will a knight always beat a BDA in a pvp fight? Or a team of a knights a team of BDA? If the answer is yes, then I think someone should do something about it... but show us that then. Surely some knight would be interested in a duel to compare. In terms of pve, are the knights clear winners? Well you tell me... are they? If so how?

The Calian comparision then? The big drawback is they have NO special attack alone. But perhaps the best there is in team. Not balanced? I dont know. Sure, a bunch of Calians can do whatever trolls quicker than others perhaps, but a lone Calian cant do anything. As a BDA you can grab a sword and go out and kill anything you want anywhere. Good or evil. Alone or in team, and you will do both decently.

In terms of pvp. 3 Calians will most likely beat 3 BDAs. But not everytime, it depends on layman guilds, tactics, location and skill in pvp too. However 1 BDA will _always_ beat 1 Calian. No matter of anything else the Calian is most likely doomed considering he has no special attack. (Well they got something reminding you of a solo special but I wont even count it here since it doesnt come close to a "normal" special).

I dont think its so utterly imbalanced as you say...

But prove me wrong. Show us something that is some type of evidence evils are so much worse off.

[Rhaegar]

What about a different approach? Instead of scaling people down, help scale others up by increasing combat/general exp gain significantly the smaller you are?
In my opinion, it should be calculated somehow that by being on 2hrs/day 5days/week you should be able to reach myth in say 6 months.
And also, to honor people who've spent years polishing their characters, why not change the 'wise persons club' or add a different one with an item displaying not their in-game age but their real-world age (eg: diamond pin for characters created pre-1995, mithril pin for 1995-2000 and so on...).

[Cherek]

What about a different approach? Instead of scaling people down, help scale others up by increasing combat/general exp gain significantly the smaller you are?
In my opinion, it should be calculated somehow that by being on 2hrs/day 5days/week you should be able to reach myth in say 6 months.
And also, to honor people who've spent years polishing their characters, why not change the 'wise persons club' or add a different one with an item displaying not their in-game age but their real-world age (eg: diamond pin for characters created pre-1995, mithril pin for 1995-2000 and so on...).

Now that would cause alot of anger too of course.... and a whole bunch of scripting seconds... and we will still have the problem with the world being too small. Which was the main reason to do the downscale in the first place.

I like the wise persons club idea. It shows more wisdom than being LD/idle the most as it is now. Or it could be a combination of both in some fun mathematical formula.