Scaling NPCs

[Cherek]

Alexi:
PvP is one reason to grow. Just like you, I wanted to be champion too so I could join the AA wars and not feel like a newbie. And even afterwards a big reason to grow was to become bigger so Monika would'nt pulp me too quickly...

Another reason to grow is to reach the next title, or the next stat level. Reach the next "level" has always been the core of most computer games.

Another thing I liked about growing was the ability to take down bigger NPCs. Like when you could solo Kernan for the first time. I felt huge. Also a classic computer game motivation, once you can handle one level, you are introduced to a new, harder level. I think its similar with Genesis "bosses" and Genesis grinding areas. Once you handle one area, you move on. You started with tiny Sparkle orcs...small draconians... orcs in Shire... krougs... Gont... etc. Next level as you grow.

Problem now is of course too many are on the max level and some dont even find that a challenge. But to solve that, as I said, I would much rather see an global upscale of the world, than making all NPCs equal. Equal NPCs to me would be like removing our "levels". Its like playing the same Super Mario bros level all over again, and again... it just looks different, but it never gets more challenging.

For me personally has titles and the ability to handle the next level of NPCs been motivations to grow in stats. So I would not see your suggested change as an improvement.

Anyway I dont think we're getting further Alexi. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Davvol:
I think many people grind just because they dont have much else to do. I know I do. If there were active politics, people in my guild, guildwars, or just people to hang with and chat/RP, I'd definitely do more of that. But since there often arent, I grind some instead while surfing the web or working... again, I think a bunch of more players would to wonders for the "endgame" too. It was more like that in the past. Once you reached the final title, (which was much much lower), the game was more about the above things.

I agree that titles and rankings make people wanna reach them and compete, but some like to compete in size. Some in other things. The problem is we dont have much else to compete in these days... I'd much rather compete in playerkills than size for instance... but for that we need players...

But yes, the rankings encourage grinding. So those having very high titles like legend and myth. And the changes that makes you see how close you are to the next mortal level also does, and the very recent changes that lets you see how close you are to the next immortal or supreme stat too. All these things encourages grinding. Good or bad? I dont know. Since there isnt much else to do these days... maybe its good? Or its the reason why people just grind and dont do anything else. I dont know.

[Makfly]

One of the ideas posted did not dictate that all NPCs scale up to your own level, though.

One idea was that it was an Xp bonus that increased or decreased based on how often the NPC was killed.
This would not scale NPCs, but provide an incentive to move to other, less desirable grinding places, thus spreading out the population of grinders. Since it was a bonus capped at 200%, an Adventurer level NPC that gave a 100 Xp would still never be worth for a Myth to grind, but perhaps a titan level NPC that gave less than desirable amounts of Xp, could be worth a visit, if it's been left alone for a good while.
Just off the top of my heads, I'd imagine that the Ogres would be thrilled, as they, if any, plow through tons of NPCs where many of them are left alone by the rest of the population.
All in all, it would just provide more Xp to grind, and increase sizes even more, but it seems that the current very low population are already encountering problems with too few grinding places to sustain their mortal levels need for stat improvement. So at least it might help with that.

I know I've said this before as well, but I think gaining an increase in PvP is a double-edged sword. On one hand it would provide for some thrills and possibly more interaction on each side of the fence, as people talk about it as well as prepare for more PvP. On the other hand, the game is currently not too well balanced. Both in terms of guilds vs guilds but this is being worked on, but also in terms of mortal level vs mortal level, which to my knowledge nothing is being done about.
If we had an influx of new players and also an increase in PvP, then the grinders of the old guard would have such an advantage that they can completely dominate the field and stay "untop" for years to come.
It may not be so much fun to wield a knife in a tank battle, and we've seen it all before - It's always the small ones that suffer in the guildwars.
So for all the good that an increase in PvP would provide, there are some things to consider as well.

[Laurel]

One of the ideas posted did not dictate that all NPCs scale up to your own level, though.

One idea was that it was an Xp bonus that increased or decreased based on how often the NPC was killed.
This would not scale NPCs, but provide an incentive to move to other, less desirable grinding places, thus spreading out the population of grinders. Since it was a bonus capped at 200%, an Adventurer level NPC that gave a 100 Xp would still never be worth for a Myth to grind, but perhaps a titan level NPC that gave less than desirable amounts of Xp, could be worth a visit, if it's been left alone for a good while.

that was the idea several people liked, however the discussion went back to scaling NPC's which is not something people majorly like

btw. when talking about "ogres" we might as well for now just talk about Straag

[Cherek]

Makfly: Yeah I know, I was just arguing with Alexi about his initial idea.

About scaling up NPCs in rarely traveled areas I am sceptical as well. Mainly I do not think it makes much sense thematically. Do small kids in Solace really grow stronger just because they arent killed? I dont know, seems odd. Allthough its an interesting idea.. I could believe some guards or citizens in some places would grow more confident if they are not killed for awhile, etc. But making it global does seem a bit strange... but in some type of NPCs perhaps it could work.

Seems like a big change to code though? And I am not sure the gain would be so big? What would be the gain? Mix up people's killing grounds a little? Might be fun I suppose but I am worried about spreading out the population more. The world is already so big you rarely meet someone except in Sparkle and possibly at some popular NPCs / killing grounds.

But hey thats me, it might be a fun idea.

[Laurel]

Makfly: Yeah I know, I was just arguing with Alexi about his initial idea.

About scaling up NPCs in rarely traveled areas I am sceptical as well. Mainly I do not think it makes much sense thematically. Do small kids in Solace really grow stronger just because they arent killed? I dont know, seems odd. Allthough its an interesting idea.

I just GOT to ask:
DID you actually read the idea or just "went through" it?

Noone wrote NPC's should grow stronger because they aren't killed ... except you, now ...
once again, the idea was:

For xp: Keep counters on how often different mobs get killed. If killed often, xp is automatically reduced, and if killed rarely, xp is automatically increased.
Codewise: Remember number of deaths each day, forget than 10 days. If total number of deaths during last 10 days is:
>1000: 50% (xp halved)
>500: 75%
>100: 100% (standard)
> 50: 125%
> 10: 150%
<=10: 200% (xp doubled)

that MAKES sense to me, as in "I killed the gazilion troll in 2 days ... I learned he was just the same as the previous ones" vs "I killed a strange and unknown creature - next time I'll know more about it's fighting style/possibilities"

[Cherek]

Laurel: Yes I did read it, I usually dont reply to thing without reading them, that would be silly, no need to get all upset. (Yeah yeah, I might, MIGHT have read through it a little too quick though:)). Obviously I understood it wrong, I figured "giving more XP" would mean the NPCs actually fight better / are stronger. I kinda assumed it would mean an increase in their size as well, but as I said myself before assuming things is usually not the best idea.

But okay I get now, you get an XP bonus for killing rare things because they are rare. Not because they grow stronger.

I stand corrected. Its an interesting idea and it works thematically. I officially withdraw my negative comments above. Except the one about spreading out the few people we have more, which still worries me.

Allthough I wonder how people would like seeing their favourite killing grounds get XP halved though... I wouldnt mind it, but you'd have to ask the big grinders out there about it.

I also wonder how it works if 3 people team up, where one hasnt killed terel trolls in a week, one did it an hour ago, and the third has never been there. You just add their induvidual percentages? -100 +100 +150 = trolls are at 150% strength for that team?

I can see the big grinders dragging around people who has not been in the area / realms for awhile to get an XP boost... might be interesting though. New possibilities for teams, just stay away from terel trolls awhile and everyone wants you in their team suddenly.

Anyway, after Laurel explained the idea I like it more. Might open up some interesting possobilities, makes scripting the same area less useful, and people who play more casually are given a slightly better chance to catch up as well since when they do login they will most likely get doubled XP in many areas.

[Alexi]

Takes 10 minutes if you have a map database to write a new script for an area. Won't solve the scripting issue which is NOT an issue if people are attentive while running it.

[Chanele]

There are quite a few ideas suggested how to improve the game, some are good and some are crap. Scaling npc:s to size of players..Then why even have mortal levels? Giving xp boost on rarely killed npc:s might be a fun idea but is this somthing we should focus on?

I will join the folks screaming after new players, that is what we must focus on. Other suggestions might be worth consideration when the most importent issues are handled, 1. Home page. 2.Bring new players. 3.finish recodes. After that we can focus on theese minor issues.

My biggest concern is the silence from wizards.

Tapakah, arch of web, whats going on with the homepage? Its been worked on for years now. If its to much, ask for help! I'm sure there are players who are more then able to aid with this.

Gorboth, How long will you wait for a new player campaign? You keep saying we need to improve the game first....soon there is no people to improve it for. Also here the key is USE current population while we still have one.

[Alexi]

After much hindsight and after all the information that's been discussed I can see the point that Scaling NPCS are not a good idea based on the fact it removes mortal levels from being "worth a damn" and perhaps the gap between NPCS and Myth level characters need to be raised so things are still challenging.

That being said a way to reward teaming (Talking teams of 3-4 people) need to be considered. If it takes a team of three Myths to successfully take down some Mithas Trolls, then some sort of team modifer to make more people actually seek other players.

The team "bonus" while its said to exist has never been explained and I know Petros is looking it up for us, but that should be explained and promoted if it outweighs people from going solo.