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PvP 
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Hero

Joined: 21 Feb 2011 19:17
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Great note, Earth.

Totally supported by me.


16 Mar 2011 19:52
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Good note Earth.

However, back during the AA wars and around that, PVP was very common and death was also very common. That was due to lag. As soon as a bunch of people attacked another bunch of people the game would be very slow usually resulting and one or more deaths.

So we have had imho "good pvp" even when people went for the kill, and killing someone was fairly easy. But not because of rules or code, but just as you say, because of the players attitude towards PVP. Back then being killed often meant you went through the Lars business, ran to guild for new stuff and joined the fight again. Death was so much more a part of the game so it didnt bother people as much as today I think. For me, as long as I stayed champion, everything was fine, and I think many had a similar attitude.

Its different today, and thats why I think a lowering of the death penalty for PVP would help in getting things going again.


17 Mar 2011 01:47
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Earth wrote:
Let me make one more comment before I get off my soapbox: I believe that PvP is a problem for the players to solve themselves. The admin has established some basic rules and guidelines, but if the players don't change the way they treat each other, PvP will always stay as something that drives people from the game rather than bringing people to stay here.


I've not been around to read the forum enough lately and just found this thread. Earth ... this is obviously a fantastic option, but how plausible is it that players would actually be able to shift their culture of their own accord so dramatically? It really only takes one rotten apple to spoil the barrel on this one, doesn't it? And ... we will always have those apples. :p

That withstanding, I totally love the notion!

G.

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24 Mar 2011 21:59
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The problem with pvp is that people are to scared to die. Oh, and that some have alot more nifty pvp tools than others and thus some people you just dont want to fight due to it.


24 Mar 2011 22:28
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Draugor wrote:
The problem with pvp is that people are to scared to die. Oh, and that some have alot more nifty pvp tools than others and thus some people you just dont want to fight due to it.


Agreed. I think for PVP to be fun again we need to:
A - have balanced factions atleast in terms of PVP abilities and...
B - think more in terms of _rewards_ for the winners than in _penatlies_ for the losers in the PVP-game.

Killing someone doesnt really give you much of a reward, usually even the _winner_ feel a little bad for spoiling someone else's hard work, and the losers feels even more bad for losing months of progress. You really dont have much to gain by killing another player, but alot to lose. In computer games the rewards for winning are usually greater than the punishment for losing, thats why you keep on playing.

If you had to start all over from level 1-1 in Super Mario each time you die it would kinda suck... but you dont. It sucks to die when you almost finish a level, but luckily you only have to restart from that level and it doesnt take you that much time to get back to where you died and try again. I am pretty sure not many would play Super Mario if you had to start on level 1-1 every time, or go back 10 levels every time you die. Well, thats how it works here. Another player beats you? Go back 10 levels and start over. Now if you finish a Super Mario level, you get to a new lavel! Yey, one step closer to rescuing the princess. In most games you also get some type of reward in form of a cool gadget or achievement or something when you "win" as well. In Genesis, when you win in PVP you get... well... not much. People call you a murderer and blame you for the game losing players... etc... yey... I won... fun...

So my suggestion for that? Well, reduce the penalty to about a fantastic progress, it sets you back a little bit, but not more than you want to get out the immediately and get back to the point where you died (and get revenge perhaps), and introduce rewards for pfighting. Be that Xp rewards, or in factions vs faction war systems. Like when a knight slays a DA soldier he gets a cool title or some skillboost or.... well you name it.

But to leave it real simple, reduce penalty for losing alot, and add a reward for winning in form of XP.

But hold on, PVP worked before with a more severe penalty and no rewards? Well... not entirely true....

First of all people were alot smaller, so even if the penalty was worse it still didnt set you back for that long, but most importantly, the maximum mortal level was really low, so even if you died several times most players would still have the maximum title, making it not feel as bad. And the fact that people died all the time also made it feel less bad.

In terms of rewards there were lots of rewards in terms of prestige, just the pure joy of killing an enemy. Killing another player was something to be PROUD of. Today... anyone who kills another player are labeled as murderers who destroy the fun for others and drive away players from the game. They are the worst scum ever and should not be allowed to play at all really... thats no reward.

But even in the past the PVP system wasnt perfect, I think even back then it would have been more fun had it been more focused on rewards than penalites.

So no I dont either think we players can, or should, fix this. I think the wizards will have to change the way PVP work in order to make it become a part of the world again. Personally, I think an active PVP system would also boost our numbers of players in the long run.


25 Mar 2011 03:02
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I really have to agree a lot with Cherek's last night. I think the punishment for losing is too great.. and the reward for losing.. nill.
I would personally be more active in PVP (note: I am not saying I would be good at it) if things were more like Cherek describes in his last post...
where if you lose.. the kill is much less ... and there would be some other type of reward for winner.

I know there will always be problems with this... people trying to find loopholes..

1) People wanting to cause serious damage to other players by assisting NPCS.. so the NPC gets the kill.
2) People using player death as a means to get away from poisons...
3) Removes cool roleplay options like a Mage telling you to eat a poisonous herb to cause your own death in front of them... because this would be seen as too severe.

But I think the benefits far outweigh these loophole negatives. And I think its far easier to "police" these couple of incidents... versus dealing with policing PVP as a whole .. and the "griefing" it causes.

The one thing that does need to be dealt with though in this scenario is the fact that some players might loose a sword and some armours from being killed... there are those who rely really heavily on components... which from what I understand.. can take weeks to acquire in some cases... seems like the penalty for them would be much higher. Or perhaps they just need to learn to keep high reserves at home and not carry everything with them? Or maybe components could go into a special container that can't be looted...?

Kit's player

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25 Mar 2011 14:04
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With the recovery etc, its barely a punishment today to get killed. So people whining over that is silly, its a different thing fighting someone in a guild that has 2 specials that hurt as much or more than yours plus that they tank better and are able to prevent you from leaving. Thats the only problem I can see atm, nifty specials are reserved 100% for the Goodie guilds, while evils get pure damage, I for one would gladly remove the ability to remove some defence for the ability to prevent leaving, making them unable to use theire weapon or stunning then.

Or switching tanks for that matter.


25 Mar 2011 14:29
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Draugor: Getting killed is barely a punishment? Seriously? Just a few notes a go you said people where too afraid to die, and now you say there is baraly any punishment. So what are people afraid of then?

It would take me several weeks or months to recover from a death. Thats nothing? It takes time even for the big hardcore grinders who play 12 hours a day to recover, and for the rest of us... much more.

Kitriana: Yeah, there are some loopholes that has to be looked into. But I am sure our clever wizards can figure out a way to make it less possible to abuse it. Or... just lower the death penatly greatly for all kinds of deaths. I never thought our severe death penalty actually made the game more fun, but thats me. I think almost all players have at some point stopped playing atleast for awhile after dying. I am not so sure what that adds to the game. Danger? Well... in theory. But does it really? Since most people are so very cautious and play it so very safe and there is no PVP the death penalty rather removes danger from the game if anything. What does people die from these days? Well most likely I would guess its smaller players/seconds who die a few times when doing quests. Or people die on purpose when leaving guilds/changing race. But that we have a dangerous world? No I dont think we do. I think a smaller death penalty would actually add some danger to the world since it would make people a little less cautious, and perhaps even introduce some PVP deaths.

About losing components... well.. like you said, perhaps people should keep a majority of their components in their racks instead. I mean you wont lose them since racks save during armageddon, so no need to carry them all.


25 Mar 2011 15:19
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Cherek wrote:
Draugor: Getting killed is barely a punishment? Seriously? Just a few notes a go you said people where too afraid to die, and now you say there is baraly any punishment. So what are people afraid of then?

It would take me several weeks or months to recover from a death. Thats nothing? It takes time even for the big hardcore grinders who play 12 hours a day to recover, and for the rest of us... much more.

Kitriana: Yeah, there are some loopholes that has to be looked into. But I am sure our clever wizards can figure out a way to make it less possible to abuse it. Or... just lower the death penatly greatly for all kinds of deaths. I never thought our severe death penalty actually made the game more fun, but thats me. I think almost all players have at some point stopped playing atleast for awhile after dying. I am not so sure what that adds to the game. Danger? Well... in theory. But does it really? Since most people are so very cautious and play it so very safe and there is no PVP the death penalty rather removes danger from the game if anything. What does people die from these days? Well most likely I would guess its smaller players/seconds who die a few times when doing quests. Or people die on purpose when leaving guilds/changing race. But that we have a dangerous world? No I dont think we do. I think a smaller death penalty would actually add some danger to the world since it would make people a little less cautious, and perhaps even introduce some PVP deaths.

About losing components... well.. like you said, perhaps people should keep a majority of their components in their racks instead. I mean you wont lose them since racks save during armageddon, so no need to carry them all.


Aye, people are afraid of nothing imo, with the recovery thingie its piss easy :P Your dificulties lie in that you're not hyper active :D Last time I died it took 2 days. During the olden days so to speak it took ages recovering, that was something to fear imo. Sure you loose your gear, people are to obsessed about gear today.


25 Mar 2011 17:13
Draugor wrote:
I for one would gladly remove the ability to remove some defence for the ability to prevent leaving, making them unable to use theire weapon or stunning then.


did you just manage to say that you'd prefer brawl (it's the full array of combat abilities Rangers have xcept for spells ... and you don't fight when you cast - that goes for executing specials too) over slash/impale+curse/wound+dragon (that's the full array of combat abilities DAs have afaik)?

or did you mean you'd prefer brawl (the whole thing) over curse/wound (just one out of 3 combat moves)? well - I'd prefer slash/impale or curse/wound or even dragon over some of the currently completely useless Ranger-spells ... obviously :twisted:

if you guys (there's been discussions about it before) find brawl to be so good - how come you're wearing those uniforms instead of Ranger-cloaks anyway? 8-)


25 Mar 2011 17:29
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