New Giftgiving Option

[Cherek]

Gorboth: Okay now I get what you were saying.

Do I protect Pharaxes? No more than I protect any player. Pharaxes isn't someone I know more than most other players. I've restored quite a few of the players who have complained about this quite a few times.

I read it like: You have restored quite a few players who have complained about this, "this" being situations where they have been given things and died and then been restored.

But you meant: You have restored quite a few players (for various reasons) who have complained about this issue in this thread.

Guess I started a false rumour... i obviously read it wrong. Sorry for that.

I'll return to saying "if" Pharaxes was restored I think its wrong.

Unless you restore him, and the kill him for idling with EQ in Sparkle. That works too.

And I still dont like the change, like Ilrahil said it removed a bunch of PVP strategies, and those are very hard to find as it is. Not its even harder to somehow manage to trap and kill another player. More realistic perhaps, but it also removes a dimension of the game. A dimension I think nobody ever felt strange or complained about before. If it isnt broken, dont fix it. And I dont think it was broken.

But... now its there and I doubt it will be changed back no matter what.

I, like Ilrahil, just wish we could have some serious PVP abilities at some point... now another one was removed... can we introduce LAG again? Maybe move the server to... the moon?

[Makfly]

Cherek,

What I was speaking about is the fact that change, inherently, creates a type of stress for the average person. Often times people have to live with a change before they can actually know how they feel about it. The initial reaction to the change is often times negative, when the actual opinion once the change is experienced for a while in context might not be.

Regarding the restorations, what I was commenting on was the fact that numerous people who have expressed outrage at the idea of a restoration for Pharaxes have, themeselves, been restored by me numerous times. The goose and gander argument comes into play, etc etc.

G.

Gorboth, your argument that the people who oppose this change and object to the situation as a whole, are just conservatives who are afraid of change, is simply too easy. Saying that it's standard for the majority to dislike change in general is likewise a cop-out.
I would hope that you had higher thoughts of the active population on this forum, who try to help the wizards improve the game for the better. I think the sizable part of the community voicing their discontent with this change and the situation surrounding it, deserves better than being told they're just reactionary scaredy-cats adverse to any change.

You say this change vastly improves the game - Come on, nobody asked for this, the impact is miniscule or non-existant for 99% of the players.
This change should be at the bottom of the priority list, yet it was implemented rapidly in relations to a player death, which makes this whole situation a PR fiasco, that smells alot like "the old days".
The more you, the Admin, stubbornly hold to your position, the worse the after-taste in peoples mouthes are going to get.

I don't suggest you, the wizards buckle on this issue, but you should treat the majority of the community better than you have.
Keeping secrets and portraying a general disdain for players, is one of the major thing that was wrong with the wizard community/Admin of the past, and you, Gorboth, made huge efforts to restore peoples faith in it. Don't squander it on something as silly as this.

PS: I wish I had been restored too, I feel left out, now that it seems everyone and their cat have been restored in the past...

[gorboth]

I don't suggest you, the wizards buckle on this issue, but you should treat the majority of the community better than you have.
Keeping secrets and portraying a general disdain for players, is one of the major thing that was wrong with the wizard community/Admin of the past, and you, Gorboth, made huge efforts to restore peoples faith in it. Don't squander it on something as silly as this.

I apologize if people are reading my comments as lumping everyone into the same category of "conservative" thinkers. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that at all. I was just waxing philosophical and generalist about the idea of change and the way change is often received.

One thing that continues to pop up on this thread is outrage that this issue, one of relative inconsequence in the grand scheme, warranted a swift and decisive code change when so many of the more important issues are left unfinished. The reason for this is actually just that - the code change was simple and totally easy to do in a matter of minutes for Mercade, who agreed to do it once Cotillion and I voiced concern over the issue. The "big" stuff that still remains unfinished is what we work on all the time - but it takes forever to "finish". So while it might seem like this suddenly elbowed its way to the front, that isn't the case at all. This was just easy to do in a single quick fix, while the other things continue to develop at the same time.

I am just totally confused about the comments about keeping secrets. What secrets are being kept here? The fact that I am not commenting about whether or not Pharaxes has been restored? My policy is actually never to post such things if I can help it. The restoration of a player is wiz-info, and should not be spread around unless by that player themselves. In the case of a PvP kill where a restoration takes place, I will typically notify both parties. I know there will be disagreement here, but I just didn't consider this a PvP kill, because there was no fight. This was using a weakness in the game design to exploit a player's triggers. That, to me, does not count as a PvP kill at all. I agree with Alorrana on that.

So ... if Pharaxes wants to talk about it, he can. Otherwise, it is wiz-info. If that is considered annoying secret-keeping ... well, alas.

G.

[Booger]

I want to be heard too!
Imnsho this was an abusable bug that gave plenty of interesting opportunities for creative people. However, it was still a bug! The fact that it has been around for ages doesn't make it less so. But naturally it doesn't get fixed until it is being pointed out, preferably by one or several highbies being negatively affected by it.

Most complaints seem to be about two things:
1: This makes life safer for idling people: The fact that they are now safe in a church, supposedly a safe room, can you really argue against that? Sure, they are safer everywhere else too now, but you can still kill them the old-fashioned way.
2: This makes it harder to kill people, ruining PvP: If PvP is about who knows, or is best at using, bugs, then just remove PvP. You are probably right that killing someone without cheating is hard, but then ask for something else, not for abusable bugs. Eg, once battle is initiated, nobody can run away until after 5 rounds has passed. Or remove the possibility of walking away - you have to "flee", moving you in a random direction, so you will have to figure out where you went in order to get away and not walk back into your enemy. Keep on fighting dirty, sure, but accept that some things do get fixed.

Again, it's a bug! It got fixed. There's no logic in me accepting things in battle or peace if I don't want to. And yes, at swordpoint I might accept something, sure. And that still works (some myth telling me to take the herb he's offering and eat it, or he'll kill me - I might very well do so, even with this new setting).

The suggestion about thieves being able to slip things in your pocket (made in this thread or the other one about the gifting option): Definite! Absolutely! Please!

And for anyone wanting to weigh down your opponent... have you pondered sending them messages? Some messengers seem to be pretty heavy.
Don't get stuck on one one fixed bug - find new ones.

[Amberlee]

This one takes the prize..
You're so far away from the game Gorboth, I suggest you start a player and play it for awhile. It will improve your desicions greatly on numerous subjects that affect us players.

Greneth, Its was not me.

I think this should apply for ALL wizards.
Make a mortal.. play the game.
See how things work.


Sure you could know as much code as anyone and know how things apply in theory.
But theory is far from the real thing.

[Ilrahil]

I know there will be disagreement here, but I just didn't consider this a PvP kill, because there was no fight. This was using a weakness in the game design to exploit a player's triggers. That, to me, does not count as a PvP kill at all. I agree with Alorrana on that.

Now see this is what chanele is talking about when she says you are to out of touch of the game. There was no exploit in a players triggers. Had he eaten the vampiric moss he would not have died. Vampiric moss drains health from the player into itself so that when you then eat it, it restores your health. All the player did was simply "give mosses to minotaur" Pharaxes triggers to stay idle while holding equipment did the rest, because the moss continued to drain him.

That is not abuse of a player's triggers. If anything you should be thanking the character as they took care of a bot who was idle for 2-3 hours with gear on them.

Code: Select all

  IDLE-BOTTING: Idle-botting occurs when a player uses timed automated
                commands to prevent them from being logged out. Idle-
                botting is ONLY illegal if the player is carrying items
                (wielded/worn or otherwise) that other players might want
                to use. We do not allow living droprooms! (In other
                words, if you want to stay logged on without holding a
                bunch of useful stuff other players might want to use,
                go right ahead.)

The above code is from the section of <help botting> a change that was implemented while you were Keeper. So now I see a contradiction in your rules, and changes being made when people helped to enforce those rules.

Care to comment?

[Alorrana]

Okay, I was wrong in saying it was hes triggers, but i still feel it was a wrong kill that shouldnt have happened.. but shouldnt we stop beating this horse.. i mean.. what happened happened..

[gorboth]

Ilrahil,

You are correct on this aspect of the issue. I did not properly investigate the inventory issue. I do not know what was being held by the character when this happened, and I do not have any log of it from others.

If, indeed, gear was being held by the player while idle, then that would be an infraction of the rules, and should be reported to the AoP. That, however, was not done. I am not often in the habit of "checking" players to see if they are idle and if they are holding gear. I rely on reports for this.

What does this have to do with the change, though? It is not the job of players to enforce the rules, it is the job of the administration. This requires reports, not vampiric moss.

G.

[Ilrahil]

Why do I continue to beat this dead horse? Because a valuable and useful PvP tool was rendered utterly useless, making it even harder to enjoy the aspect of PvP.

Why do we even allow players to attack other players at this point? Shouldn't it just be a carebear mud? Majority of the changes just make it easier and easier for people to bot and grind until they are supersized. Personally I ran into two teams of botters yesterday. Why even bother attacking them or attempting to kill them. If I do whatever coy method I come up with will just be changed.

[Alexi]

Ilrahil,

You are correct on this aspect of the issue. I did not properly investigate the inventory issue. I do not know what was being held by the character when this happened, and I do not have any log of it from others.

If, indeed, gear was being held by the player while idle, then that would be an infraction of the rules, and should be reported to the AoP. That, however, was not done. I am not often in the habit of "checking" players to see if they are idle and if they are holding gear. I rely on reports for this.

What does this have to do with the change, though? It is not the job of players to enforce the rules, it is the job of the administration. This requires reports, not vampiric moss.

G.

So what I'm gathering here.......


The Vampiric Moss is at fault. While in Pharaxes inventory it didn't report seeing the equipment he may/may not have held at this time, and because the administration doesn't monitor such thing, the death was probably reversed.

Perhaps we should punish the Vampiric Moss for not reporting this? I vote deletion!

/Yes that was all sacrasim. Let the issue go, its removed, shit happens everyday that we have no control over. Does anyone agree with what happened, some yes, some no. Can't we counterargue enough that the Admin will change it back, no because in their mind its a bug that has been fix after X happened.