Banning all scripts

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Should scripting of any kind simply be banned to solve the botting issue?

Yes.
18
40%
No.
27
60%
 
Total votes: 45

Rincon
Great Adventurer
Posts: 195
Joined: 04 Jun 2010 23:37

Re: Banning all scripts

Post by Rincon » 02 Sep 2012 18:11

G: although I find power walking extremely useful (especially for lazy ppl and that's the majority of us), I am also of the opinion that it spoils the point of the game. On another MUD (arkadia) walking around in the wilderness makes you extremely exhausted rather quickly, so travelling long distances may be quite a challenge. You can actually get ambushed by other players along the way and auto paths are obsolete since you get tired very fast. And once you get to an area it is to stay longer there. In Genesis you can run around Middle-Earth from east to west in a blink of an eye. I'm not a great fan of that, but on the other hand I understand the arguement of 'PLAYABILITY'. People do not come to play this game to spend half an hour just typing directions to get anywhere.

I knew players who had auto paths and barely knew the realms and were unable to lead a team. That's totally lame IMO. Would I be happy if I was unable to use paths (although I have only 6 paths prepared and everywhere else I go is by typing)? It probably wouldn't bother me too much and I wouldn't get overexcited having them gone. On a side note, since vamps closed I'm no longer frustrated playing Genesis :)

Becka
Apprentice
Posts: 40
Joined: 21 Aug 2012 23:13

Re: Banning all scripts

Post by Becka » 02 Sep 2012 18:18

Well I know nothing about scripts and stuff, I remember when I tried out zmud a few years back and it came with maps, I had to mail Gorboth to make sure I was not cheating since it seemed crazy that I could just click on something and my character would move to that spot. Mindblowing stuff!

As far as what would be legal or not is not very difficult to define is it?

As soon as you do something that would be beneficial to your character, apart from moving to Y to X, should not be legal.

Example: Player X is moving from Gondor to somewhere in Ithilien, does whatever he needs to do to get that going, gets up from his or hers computer chair, goes to make a cuppah. Gets a biscuit, brings tea, sits down and voila; character is at a predetermined room in Ithilien. Player sips the tea, nibbles on the biscuit and gets ready to ambush some foolish rangers.

Player Y does the same thing, but this players script makes his character stop at 4 different locations to gather herbs. While he is not at the computer. Not good.

Player Z sits at the computer and herbs Ithilien, it is scripted but he is at the puter. If Gorboth should arrive in a puff of smoke and question the player if he is there, the player (since player is at the puter) could easily answer and thus whatever is going on, is legal.

-But Becka that seems nuts, so you telling me I can not go and take a wee while my character is herbing away, after all I will only be gone 2 minutes? Yes, you can not do that. If you decide to leave your computer then you are in risk of being attacked by a giant pink unicorn being send to your doom by the good grace of Gorboth.

-But I did not see a wizard show up and asking me anything? Yes you did, since from now on the wizards that arrive to investigate whether you are there or not will no show up in a puff of smoke, but will EMERGE FROM A LARGE CLOUD OF FLOWERS (10 points to whomever gets that reference) SINGING LOUDLY ABOUT THE JOYS OF BEING AT YOUR KEYBOARD. So yes, you can not miss Gorboth or any other wizard that shows up anymore.

My somewhat poorly thought out two pennies on the matter. (I did put some thought into the cloud of flowers!)

Arcon

Re: Banning all scripts

Post by Arcon » 02 Sep 2012 18:20

Paths and other types of fast walking is negative for the game. People don't see who or what they pass running and if you(or a newbie) see someone walking by and want to talk to them you won't be able to because they are on the other side of that domain. It is also very annoying to team with people that uses paths, since you can't talk to them while you are travelling.

I like the idea of getting tired when walking, it seems like a good way to solve it and it creates possibilities to ambush people etc.

Targun
Adept
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Oct 2010 01:31

Re: Banning all scripts

Post by Targun » 03 Sep 2012 03:23

The question is tough, as it requires to determine what a script is. Do we consider a script a trigger that collects money from a corpse or use of an ingot? From my experience going absolutely drastic does little to no good. If we're talking about single, repeated and mundane operation, such as looting a corpse or assisting in a fight it's pointless to forbid it. You can train a parrot, chimpansee or any other pet to tap this one key, pick coins or assist. And suprising as it might sound I do not believe the game should be aimed at pets rather than humans ;).

This being said, and being aware of Gorboth's post on limited man power; it is vital to keep in mind that at a steady pace that can be reached with limited resources, game should keep on turning towards being interesting, _challenging_ and punishing botting behaviours, scripters etc with it's design. With a huge credit to players who whined for years and who in my opinion were vocal minority- that with some sick urge to boost their ego in most awkward way pushed the line further and further to a point where Genesis almost ceased to be a game for humans and turned into...

No human can compete with a robot. I covered this in a post in another topic, trying to point out how to cut off robotic behaviours. If we loose botters/scripters who just grind 'being by computer' don't talk to anyone and their only contribution to the game is clearing the grounds that could be cleared by a team or some players who actually play the game I say- Genesis looses nothing. Harsh as it may sound. I honestly do not care if there are 10/30 or 70 people online, when 20 out of 30 or 60 out of 70 are running on a script. Truth to be told it's better to have 10 players who actually play and enjoy the game, rather than 10 who play and 60 who bot. At least those few will care and won't be exposed to such a deterrent.

Where to draw the line then? I'd say any script that emulates taking a decision instead of a player should be strictly forbidden and punished with erasing all combat experience or deletion.
Therefore, a script that:
* wanders through an xp ground, - eresal XP, second time- deletion
* follows the leader in all sorts of holes, through passageways, bushes, into caves, climbs etc. - punished by death, following offences- eresal XP, deletion
* searches for herbs - erasal of XP
* decides where to flee if attacked etc - deaths, XP wipe, deletion
* AUTOHUNTS (follows the attacked and fleeing target on a script)- instant deletion
* Gives control over chat to another player (famous ask gorboth climb stairs;climb stairs;climb stairs- get all from corpse; whistling innocently leave whereabouts of Minas Morgul) - deletion to both players involved

The whole thing with being able to 'be at computer' is just ridiculous and stinks with hipocricy.. With todays computing power I can easily write a script for a ground that will beep while I play another game or am at work, whenever I receive message other than standarized for the area. So every time Gorboth comes, I will respond, which means my char can grind for hours without me even taking a peek. If youre not controlling your char directly while it is grinding you are botting, therefore either log off- as you're not playing, or get deleted.This is how I see it.
SPEEDWALKING
Cost to move should be determined by the pace you're moving between rooms. Insane paces of double clicks on the mapper, should be getting player exhausted after ~20 rooms. Period. You don't want to type every single direction? Fair enough, set your mapper to walk at a pace of 2s per room. You'll be able to notice who you pass and won't be teleporting all over the instantenously. Not to mention PvP implications where you need to think how, and where you want to flee, or how can you exhaust the perrson you are chasing.

Poll: I chose 'Yes' with the exceptions included in the post.

User avatar
gorboth
Site Admin
Posts: 2317
Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Location: Some old coffin

Re: Banning all scripts

Post by gorboth » 03 Sep 2012 05:53

Targun wrote:The question is tough, as it requires to determine what a script is. Do we consider a script a trigger that collects money from a corpse or use of an ingot? From my experience going absolutely drastic does little to no good. If we're talking about single, repeated and mundane operation, such as looting a corpse or assisting in a fight it's pointless to forbid it. You can train a parrot, chimpansee or any other pet to tap this one key, pick coins or assist. And suprising as it might sound I do not believe the game should be aimed at pets rather than humans ;).

This being said, and being aware of Gorboth's post on limited man power; it is vital to keep in mind that at a steady pace that can be reached with limited resources, game should keep on turning towards being interesting, _challenging_ and punishing botting behaviours, scripters etc with it's design. With a huge credit to players who whined for years and who in my opinion were vocal minority- that with some sick urge to boost their ego in most awkward way pushed the line further and further to a point where Genesis almost ceased to be a game for humans and turned into...

No human can compete with a robot. I covered this in a post in another topic, trying to point out how to cut off robotic behaviours. If we loose botters/scripters who just grind 'being by computer' don't talk to anyone and their only contribution to the game is clearing the grounds that could be cleared by a team or some players who actually play the game I say- Genesis looses nothing. Harsh as it may sound. I honestly do not care if there are 10/30 or 70 people online, when 20 out of 30 or 60 out of 70 are running on a script. Truth to be told it's better to have 10 players who actually play and enjoy the game, rather than 10 who play and 60 who bot. At least those few will care and won't be exposed to such a deterrent.

Where to draw the line then? I'd say any script that emulates taking a decision instead of a player should be strictly forbidden and punished with erasing all combat experience or deletion.
Therefore, a script that:
* wanders through an xp ground, - eresal XP, second time- deletion
* follows the leader in all sorts of holes, through passageways, bushes, into caves, climbs etc. - punished by death, following offences- eresal XP, deletion
* searches for herbs - erasal of XP
* decides where to flee if attacked etc - deaths, XP wipe, deletion
* AUTOHUNTS (follows the attacked and fleeing target on a script)- instant deletion
* Gives control over chat to another player (famous ask gorboth climb stairs;climb stairs;climb stairs- get all from corpse; whistling innocently leave whereabouts of Minas Morgul) - deletion to both players involved

The whole thing with being able to 'be at computer' is just ridiculous and stinks with hipocricy.. With todays computing power I can easily write a script for a ground that will beep while I play another game or am at work, whenever I receive message other than standarized for the area. So every time Gorboth comes, I will respond, which means my char can grind for hours without me even taking a peek. If youre not controlling your char directly while it is grinding you are botting, therefore either log off- as you're not playing, or get deleted.This is how I see it.
SPEEDWALKING
Cost to move should be determined by the pace you're moving between rooms. Insane paces of double clicks on the mapper, should be getting player exhausted after ~20 rooms. Period. You don't want to type every single direction? Fair enough, set your mapper to walk at a pace of 2s per room. You'll be able to notice who you pass and won't be teleporting all over the instantenously. Not to mention PvP implications where you need to think how, and where you want to flee, or how can you exhaust the perrson you are chasing.

Poll: I chose 'Yes' with the exceptions included in the post.
This is a fantastic post.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Archie
Beginner
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 08:19

Re: Banning all scripts

Post by Archie » 03 Sep 2012 06:09

How about a "bot mode" option where you do not gsin the xp?

This is primarily to the herb pumishment of losing xp but could actually be applied to all of them.

Would that make it better in any way?

Archie

Laurel

Re: Banning all scripts

Post by Laurel » 03 Sep 2012 10:26

If you guys introduce even 35% of the ideas from this thread into Genesis, I'm quite sure it will be a really huge red "no entry" sign for me.

Explanation why:

1. I don't have 8+ hours for gaming in each setting
2. I want to be able to not focus my entire self on the computer when I play
3. I don't want to have long tiresome travels between 1 place and another - in Gen I pay tax for means to speed those travels up, in other games I pay play-time to decrease travel time (mounts, portals, etc.) in future; why would you want to increase it futher? is travel fun or something?
4. travel in Genesis is already goddamn time-consuming (travel 2 paths, rest/cast spell/eat herb/feed mount/etc., travel another path, ship 1, ship 2, ship 3, half an hour passed for TRAVEL - that was great fun, now I need to logoff ... errr wait, gem home?! :( )
5. if you want me to remember by heart all those paths in Genesis, then I am surely not the target-customer - it's an awfully long list of otherwise unusable information that clutters up my brain
6. ... tired of writing more, so I will sum it up short

If you want people to pay attention instead of creating triggers, make their experience more fun. Travel is not fun in Genesis - never been since I play. There are long paths in Gen, that are neither fun nor interesting nor challenging ... they are just there.
Entering various places while following the leader is not fun neither (took me only 20min to figure out how to follow the leader when mounted to a certain location that says "you cannot do that while leading your mount - I don't want to manually type 3-4 commands each time my team passes by).

Tired of those ideas that would make Genesis even more tiresome and tedious without increasing any fun-factor in it. For some reason I don't play Arkadia (for the last 10 years) eventho I had an unique char there.

How did we even come to discussing team-follow triggers or paths as scripts? You can't tell (from wiz perspective) a well coded trigger from a manual command or client-alias anyway, so you will be punishing only one type of player: those unskilled with their client-setup.

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1786
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: Banning all scripts

Post by Draugor » 03 Sep 2012 11:24

How about we create ambushes from NPCs when out walking, I mean for example. If you're talking through the shire... a group of evil hobbits can come and jump you out of fear that you'll reveal all theire evil plans? Draconians could be a legit hazard in Krynn etc? Outside of killing areas, hunting things could come and jump you, ofc based on your size, we dont want myths jumping novices, not sure that would prove productive...

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3170
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Banning all scripts

Post by Cherek » 03 Sep 2012 15:11

I usually agree with Targun and disgaree with Laurel, but on this topic I generally disagree with Targun and agree with Laurel. :)

I am also convinced the key to keep players from automated actions is to make it fun and rewarding to be active, and that banning certain behaviors, when some parts of the game itself is coded in a way that kinda promotes them, will not work. I could be wrong of course, but thats what I think.

One thing I found appealing in Targun's post though was the "movement pace" idea. I dont really think it will make people script less, just a little bit slower, however I think it would definitely be interesting for PVP, which in turn would help interaction, and perhaps make people bot less in the long run.

How hard would such a thing be to implement? Could give it a test period during an arma or so... see what people think about it? So the idea is that if you travel at a certain slower pace, like 2 seconds per room fatigue levels remain the same as today, but if you travel faster you also become tired faster? So super speedwalking makes you super-tired. I think that could be interesting. While I agree with Laurel that travel itself is not exactly "fun", I think this change might become fun since it would add a little more danger to the game. Especially traveling through enemy or protected territories, as you're no longer just a command from safety.

It also sounds like something that's not too hard to implement? or?

Laurel

Re: Banning all scripts

Post by Laurel » 03 Sep 2012 16:24

Don't get me wrong - I don't feel like there is me vs anyone here on this board.
I just find it hard to cope with throwing my 10+ years of Genesis away without a clear view of the benefit (the goal, the strategy to reach it and the tactics for each milestone).

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