Roleplaying

Discuss general game topics or anything else that doesn't fit in the other forums
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- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
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petros
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Re: Roleplaying

Post by petros » 27 Nov 2013 22:24

Kiara wrote:I'll stick to in-game-mage-opposition from now on. I do hope there is no problem with exposing secrets and tearing down guilds there? I mean the game does welcome conflict... I hope?

I get the feeling that you disapprove, or am I am just reading to much into your note?
Probably reading too much into it. In game is perfect. Conflict is good for the game - that's what it was built for. How you choose to reveal to others your experience is your choice. Just try and do it in a way that makes sense for the character, rather than the player.

Draugor
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Re: Roleplaying

Post by Draugor » 27 Nov 2013 22:25

petros wrote:
Kiara wrote:I'll stick to in-game-mage-opposition from now on. I do hope there is no problem with exposing secrets and tearing down guilds there? I mean the game does welcome conflict... I hope?

I get the feeling that you disapprove, or am I am just reading to much into your note?
Probably reading too much into it. In game is perfect. Conflict is good for the game - that's what it was built for. How you choose to reveal to others your experience is your choice. Just try and do it in a way that makes sense for the character, rather than the player.

He did however post this in game didnt he? Sparkle board, after that it was brought here but the post itself was made in game wasnt it?

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petros
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Re: Roleplaying

Post by petros » 27 Nov 2013 22:26

Draugor wrote:SO! If Kiara had posted the logg just to show of a fight and someone else pointed out how little resistances seems to actually do you'd be cool with it? :P
I would be more cool with it, yes. Plus, it's up to your own interpretation at that point. I'll tell you that resistances do matter a lot now. So your own interpretation needs to be tested against that assertion.

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petros
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Re: Roleplaying

Post by petros » 27 Nov 2013 22:28

Draugor wrote:He did however post this in game didnt he? Sparkle board, after that it was brought here but the post itself was made in game wasnt it?
I'm still not being clear, and for that I apologize. A log is a player's own experience. Posting a log is not a RP way to communicate an experience to others in the game. It is 100% OOC. I would not recommend posting logs directly to the Sparkle board.

I get there's tons of meta gaming and sometimes it's just easier to post a log than actually write a story about it. But I'd like to encourage that level of effort because imo that's what Genesis is all about.

Kiara
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Re: Roleplaying

Post by Kiara » 27 Nov 2013 22:29

petros wrote:
Kiara wrote:I'll stick to in-game-mage-opposition from now on. I do hope there is no problem with exposing secrets and tearing down guilds there? I mean the game does welcome conflict... I hope?

I get the feeling that you disapprove, or am I am just reading to much into your note?
Probably reading too much into it. In game is perfect. Conflict is good for the game - that's what it was built for. How you choose to reveal to others your experience is your choice. Just try and do it in a way that makes sense for the character, rather than the player.
Ok!

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Re: Roleplaying

Post by Celephias » 27 Nov 2013 23:07

petros wrote:
Draugor wrote:He did however post this in game didnt he? Sparkle board, after that it was brought here but the post itself was made in game wasnt it?
I'm still not being clear, and for that I apologize. A log is a player's own experience. Posting a log is not a RP way to communicate an experience to others in the game. It is 100% OOC. I would not recommend posting logs directly to the Sparkle board.

I get there's tons of meta gaming and sometimes it's just easier to post a log than actually write a story about it. But I'd like to encourage that level of effort because imo that's what Genesis is all about.
+1

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Tive
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Re: Roleplaying

Post by Tive » 28 Nov 2013 00:16

You can always post a video instead of a log of MMs using their spells. After years of research I managed to find one. Also shows their great RP.
(If you look carefully there is also reference to rock/paper/scissors from the other topic on this forum)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDpNJWsh58g

And of course the quality title :P
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Amorana
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Re: Roleplaying

Post by Amorana » 28 Nov 2013 00:29

Kiara wrote:Ok, since me posting a log in Sparkle board derailed into a (sometimes pretty nasty) RP discussion, I figured its better to start a topic dedicated to that instead.
As I said below, Kudos. And since you are trying to rise above our obvious disagreement, I'll try to do the same. I'll attempt to leave any bitterness at the door for the sake of a good discussion on RP.
Kiara wrote:A few people, Amorana and Celephias for instance, both members of so called "RP guilds" thought that was generally very bad RP. On the other hand, other people have expressed the opposite, and who like me don't think posting a log is particularly bad RP at all.

Gorboth also expressed that he would like the game to be much about RP than it is.
I think that's a fair summation. I also like the "so called 'RP Guilds'". To be honest, I'd list the top four RP guilds in game, in no particular order, as 1) Mages 2) SU 3) SCoP 4) PoT. I want to follow that with saying that I don't mean this as a slight at any other guild in saying so, but as a compliment to these four. Having had a character in two of the above (scandalous! who is my alt?!) These four guilds have always given me quality interaction, no matter what character I have interacted with them with. I suspect (again, based on experience) that it has something to do with the joining procedure - it's like being indoctrinated into a cult joining at least two of these, and I suspect the other two are much the same. I'm not saying every guild should have as strict joining rituals. If they did, we'd probably lose a lot of newbies. However, perhaps my experience in these guilds is what has made me so gung-ho about RPing.

P.S. I don't care if any of you know who my alt is, or what you think of them - keep it to yourself. I think it's horrible that I'm learning that Kiara's alt has been outed to several people. That's kind of a pissy thing to do, in my opinion.
Kiara wrote:Now i do try to RP. Believe it or not.... and does posting two logs mean I am terrible at RPing? Is it better to share logs by mail? Is that more "in character". To mail them to guild councils? Post on guild boards? Was my log posting any worse than what almost everyone does too? Just because it was on a public board? (which isn't that uncommon either historically).

Should we forbid posting of logs? Completely? I mean either we forbid it or we accept it? Is there some type of middle ground?

Personally, for me. A log is a part of the game, a transcript of events that took place. I don't think someone sharing a log makes them bad a bad roleplayer.
As I said before, there's a time and a place. As Celephias spoke to earlier - the mages NEVER post a log, but might privately mail them. I think this is likely part of covering your ass as a player. No one wants the AoP stepping in and saying what you've done is crap for PVP. Mailing a log to your guild council (or in guilds without one, posting it to a private guild board if absolutely necessary, though I think mailing it to other active members would do just as well) helps to let everyone know "Hey, yeah, look - we have justification for hunting this player if we want to." It also gives the guild council a log that can be shared with the AoP should some complaint be made, etc. In private, mail sharing, I think is an okay thing. With that said, in my "ideal world" (again, MY ideal world) once the council had this information, interacting about it would still be RP. "Hey Kiara, I received your message that you had been attacked, what did that awful mage do to you?" "You wouldn't believe it! He used a foul magic that turned me into a toad and some other foul magic that turned my weapon into flowers! There must be some way we can counteract such an attack!" I think it's entirely possible to RP an encounter and still share a log to your guild council to cover your ass.

My biggest problem, as I always suggested, was putting the log on the Sparkle board. I am 100% fine with putting it on the forum (though I agree with Petros that I think logs should be uplifting, not designed to pick apart a guild's abilities. If people infer abilities from it, I go back to Zar's earlier points. If you don't want people to find out about an ability, don't use it in public.)

Kiara wrote:What else is bad RP?

Talking about how you need to walk the dog? Take a smoke? What movie you should see tonight? Yeah this happens all the time. And for someone trying to RP its probably not that fun to relate to.
I agree. I'll give an example. I love Budwise. He is an awesome player, a great teammate, a good friend. But the guy is never in character. I'm not saying this to put him on blast, but I've come to expect it. It bugs me sometimes when I'm trying to RP and he busts in complaining about Petros' kroug lever being stuck down. But Budwise also never claims to be trying to RP. If he was on the forums telling me he tries really hard at RP and then pulled a move like that, I'd probably bust on him a bit. In that regard, as you say, being someone who loves RP, it's a bit hard to relate to him at times. That said - that quote about the kroug lever had me laughing for a solid 15 minutes.

As I said on the other thread, ooc conversations happen all the time. I preface any of those that I have with OOC. Sometimes if the conversation goes long I get tired of writing OOC, but eventually, it's either very obvious that it's time to be IC or I specifically say IC: <message> to get things back on track again. When I have such a conversation, I keep it in a medium that anyone else around me can't hear it, be it whispers, guild messaging ability, whatever. As I said previously, part of having a online game with other players is sometimes you have to let people know you're going afk, when you're going to get out of work, when you're going to take a poo. Sometimes you just care enough about the person you want to ask how their job is going, if they're healthy again, etc. I just think such conversations should happen in a private medium, or in a situation where all involved can participate and choose to or not to. Posting a log to the Sparkle board takes that choice away. You see "Oh! Great! An awesome note about a fight with a mage..." and then realize you're getting a playerside log. I can choose not to read it, sure. I just think having it on a public board detracts from how we want to build an RP environment (which, I hope on at least some small level, everyone playing would like to do.)
Kiara wrote:How about all the Skyping and stuff? Letting people join guild based on being RL friends, or online friends, not caring about RP one bit.
I've always hated friend only guilds. And I think they're bad for the game, because it creates elitist environments where you have to be one of the "good old boys" to get in. I'll give you a great example of me interacting with people. Hektor isn't online as much anymore. Sometimes, I'll say to him that Amorana has sent him a mail in game (just to sort of give him a heads up on a player to player level.) He makes me wait until he logs in to read it for a response. He never asks what it was. Nor would I want him to. When I joined SCoP, we were already good pals. In that regard, I am willing to bet he put me through some of the most rigorous discussion and testing for a Seeker that I've seen since I've been in the guild. And I am glad he did. I'd hate to have just gotten in because I knew someone, and I feel like because of those interactions I'm a better Cleric and a better RPer than I was before them.
Kiara wrote:Treating all your characters as one. Sharing equipment and knowledge, money and well anything. Bad? I don't know. Common? Sure.
This gets tricky. I think if you're donating gear to a guild (and it makes sense for you to) that's one thing. Like, for example, if the Neidars are friendly with members of the Secret Society and you have a character in both, sure, it might make sense. However, getting gear and dropping it and logging so that you can grab it on your alt and donate it for rack points? Not so cool. I think it's about knowing separation. The rules actually state that any action you take that directly benefits another one of your characters is against the rules. The reason for that is that it breaks immersion, creates unfair advantages, etc etc.

The one that I still think is a bit problematic out of those is sharing money. Money is too darn hard to come by in order to train your skills as a youngster. I think there should be some exception for trading money only, but that's personal opinion. I still think it's not great RP, and if you can beg borrow and steal some off of older folks, it's probably better RP, but until things are made better for youngsters (maybe questing can start giving some monetary rewards to help with this? Could we talk about making this change wizards? Maybe I'll start another thread.)
Kiara wrote:Asking your friends on Skype to do favours for you? Like buying items from their guild and give to you? Bad RP?
Yes. I don't think I have anything else to say about it other than I think yes, it is. I can't think of any reason it wouldn't be bad RP. Why? Separation of characters, meta gaming, breaking immersion. Lots of reasons.
Kiara wrote:How about opposing guilds RP-wise teaming up and helping each other since they're pals on Skype or iRL? Bad?
Yep! In my opinion it is. And it's part of the reason that I've never had an evil character! I don't really know any evils, as most of my friends play good-aligned characters. If I had more people I knew and interacted more regularly with on the evil side in an RP fashion, I might get interested in playing one so I could hang out with them a bit sometimes. But I definitely think that teaming with someone whose stated purpose conflicts with that of your guilds is poor form. Why would a mage ever team with a ranger? They're mortal enemies. Same with Knights and BDA. I know I have been told that a lot of guilds actually have policies against this type of behavior for this exact reason. That's why I made the post about Ilrahil's BDA title, as it had been my understanding that the title didn't make any sense. Now that I understand the dragonlance timeline a bit better in regards to that scenario, it's cool and makes a lot of sense to me!
Kiara wrote:Talking openly about stuff like scripts and triggers in game? Bad?
Phrased like that and in open chat? Yeah, I'd say not great RP form. If it's a couple of you in private and you're trying to help someone understand, or if it's a newbie on ntell, that's one thing. But I also think there's ways to RP it... "You know, if you train yourself to be reflexive and stun that mage when he's about to turn you into a toad, you might be able to survive longer! I've always noticed that they always quack like a duck right before they turn someone into a toad."

I guess I try to take everything, even OOC stuff, and turn it into an opportunity to RP. Maybe that's not everyone's cup of tea, I don't know.
Kiara wrote:Speaking in your native language about all sorts of non RP-related stuff. Even with others around. Bad?
This one bugs me a lot. I want to be culturally receptive and accepting, really, I do. But Genesis is a game written in English, represented as common. I think it's real poor form to start trying to introduce polish into common. I've seen it happen, and I'm not a big fan. Now, I guess if you're doing it in a team of buddies who all speak polish and it's just easier for you to communicate that way... Alright, that's okay with me. But when you're with a group of people half of which don't speak polish... Speak in English! You clearly must be fluent in it, else Genesis would be the most confusing game ever.

In terms of using polish or russian or whatever to speak about OOC IRL things in game in order to hide it from others who don't speak that language? See above. Poor form (again, personal opinion.)
Kiara wrote:I could go on and on about stuff that happens every day that isnt very "RP".

Now. is this bad? And if so, WHY is it bad? I mean I dont know anyone who dont do at least something of the above. Most do several of those things. Maybe Amorana and Celephias and a few others are exceptions I dont know. But I think its a little bit funny that me posting to logs because such a big RP issue when all of the stuff above goes on daily and most people know very well that it does. Yet I never hear anyone complain.

So if it's something a lot of people do, and clearly want to do, why is it then "bad"? Is it bad? And how would you go about changing how people play the game? Would we want to?

Feel free to discuss.
As to why this is bad? I think it breaks immersion. I know that's sort of a default reason at this point, but that's kind of what breaking RP does, and why it's bad for a text based game. In a text based world, our entire reality is based on words. When those words begin to bring in outside perspective, outside conversations, playerside logs, etc... It starts to erode away that rich and beautiful world. People may think they've seen everything there is to see in Genesis, and maybe some have. But I, to this day having played for 15 years, still find myself finding new and interesting things at least a couple of times per week. I think when we start to slip and get lazy about what sort of an RP standard we wish to maintain as a community, it is a slippery slope towards the end of Genesis. Part of what attracts Mudders to Genesis and keeps them is the rich story and world that's created here. Part of what keeps people who aren't Mudders here is that it's such a unique and interesting experience, one that you can't find in a graphical world. When we do things like revealing guild abilities, talking OOC, posting logs on boards, etc etc, we ruin some of the mystique and grandeur that exists in our world. This not only makes me sad, but makes me worried about our ability to keep Genesis sustainable. And perhaps that, too, is where my passion for RP comes from.

Don't get me wrong. As grumpy as I may seem to you about RP, I've made my fair share of mistakes in my day, RP wise. I wish I could take some of them back. But I've also grown a lot in the years since that, and I've come to respect RP and why we do it a lot more. I just hope maybe as a community we can all grow to respect RP a bit more and at least try to maintain some semblance of it within our realms in an age where botting and watching tv has become a norm.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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Kas
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Re: Roleplaying

Post by Kas » 28 Nov 2013 01:05

If you have a log and you want to post it, why not break it down and write a fitting storytelling scroll about what your character actually experienced from his/her unique perspective? Study the text, the feeling spells give your character, add some tension, drama, feelings and character biasm for additional flavour.

For the new and the unexperienced, instead of a cold ooc log, they find a story of some event that may be inspiring to read (and dread).
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

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Tive
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Re: Roleplaying

Post by Tive » 28 Nov 2013 01:19

Sooooo.. there are no numbers in Genesis, just plain text which many say is what this game is about. All the fancy descriptions which WIZARDS create and say they give you drama and all that crap. And now you people say logs are NOT in character? Not RP? These descriptions are supposed to be all that... So, are they fu**ed up? make up your mind. Or has someone got double standards and is protective about one sh*t or another? Sad.
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