Death Penalty Opinions

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Should the game return to having some kind of exp-penalty when a character dies?

Yes
36
69%
No
16
31%
 
Total votes: 52

Ydred
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Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Ydred » 24 Jan 2014 19:39

Thanks for the title. That made it alot quicker. Sorry if you consider that lazy. But your simple title saved me alot of hassle. So thank you.

As for the size inflation .... I dont agree there for sure. I like to grow. Your thoughts on it were the opposite of mine.

I would say that genesis needs to remove all quests ..... like now .... and max out all quests xps ... and then double those said qxps or more.

So if you had 5 possible qxps now ..... everyone would immediately get access to 10-20qxps.
It would work something like this.
And as for new players .... how to deal with that .... login time.
50% of qxps are given over the first 25days. And the last 50% are given over the next 175days played time.
This would give you access to qxps at our currrent max level within 25days. And if you actually play
you would get to double,triple or quadruple (not sure best number but I think 4 times the current amount)
the current amount over the next 175days played time.
So right now ... all characters over 25days would have to go 175days to get the last 50% of qxps.
This would allow anyone with max qxps to lose nothing .... and all small players to have somewhat quick
access to a nice brute.

With 4 times the current qxps .... myth would be easy and mid myth also. Even super myth would.

I hate quests. They should just give you a gold reward.
Last edited by Ydred on 24 Jan 2014 19:45, edited 1 time in total.

Ydred
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Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Ydred » 24 Jan 2014 19:42

Sorry for double post.
It happens.
Last edited by Ydred on 24 Jan 2014 19:45, edited 1 time in total.

Ydred
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Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Ydred » 24 Jan 2014 19:43

zar wrote: 4b. Punishing by more than 50% of stats is too harsh. I guess Myth becoming an expert is good enough punishment.
May be to do it start from 20% with increment of 3% limited by 50%.
50% of Myth for some is not near expert. It is champion. It depends on your quest xps mostly.

Which is why i think we should get rid of them all together. It is the biggest reason for stat imbalance.

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Amorana
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Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Amorana » 24 Jan 2014 19:51

zar wrote:I want to add some coins for polishing it:
You just took everything I disliked about the idea and doubled down. Bravo, haha.

I guess we can certainly say opinions vary widely.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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Amorana
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Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Amorana » 24 Jan 2014 19:54

Removing - longer post incoming.
Last edited by Amorana on 24 Jan 2014 20:02, edited 1 time in total.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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Zingil
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Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Zingil » 24 Jan 2014 19:59

I agree with Arcon that it would probably be best to base the temporary penalty on experience points rather than the actual stat value. The number of experience point unmodified by race would probably be best to use to in case someone switches races after dying. If an ogre died and then switched races to hobbit he would be an incredibly strong hobbit... but possibly the least nimble hobbit to.

I suggest that upon death the amount of experience points (unmodified by race) in each of the six stats is saved and used to calculate the stat penalty for each stat. The penalty would be the difference of the stat calculated from the amount of experience stored, now modified by race, -25% and the stat calculated from the amount of experience stored modified by race.

So, just as an example, if we assume that a character had 10000 xp in strength when dying, a racial modifier of 2.0 (giant), and that stats are calculated from experience points by taking the square root of the number of experience points, and the death penalty is 25% we get:

Strength penalty = SQRT(10000 * 2.0 * (1-0.25)) - SQRT(10000 * 2.0) = 122.47 - 141.42 = -18.95

A 10 x more experienced giant would receive the following penalty:

Strength penalty = SQRT(100000 * 2.0 * (1-0.25)) - SQRT(100000 * 2.0) = 387.30 - 447.21 = -59.91

These penalties would be calculated from the saved experience point values for the individual stats at the time of death upon each login (in case the player changes races while having stat penalties) and added to the player's stats calculated as normal. I envision this being done by a shadow or an invisible object having pretty much the same effect as other objects that alter players' stats.

One thing to note is that using this system a player will still continue to grow and earn experience, which will make their stats increase, while the stat penalties remain constant as they are based on the experience level at the time of death.

So if the above smaller giant gained an extra 1000 xp in strength, while under death penalty, the character would have a strength of:

Strength = SQRT(11000 * 2.0) + Strength penalty = 148.32 + (-18.95) = 129.37

And there would be no reason why other stat altering items, herbs, potions and/or spells would not work while having death penalties applied to stats.

But that being said I do not mind the current death penalty system that much, beside the way people use it to boost their character's guild stats, but thats a different discussion. When it comes to player fighting I believe that the large difference in power and abilities between guilds and size difference between characters is a much bigger detractor than the death penalty itself.

-Zingil's player

Ydred
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Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Ydred » 24 Jan 2014 20:12

Zingil wrote:
But that being said I do not mind the current death penalty system that much, beside the way people use it to boost their character's guild stats, but thats a different discussion. When it comes to player fighting I believe that the large difference in power and abilities between guilds and size difference between characters is a much bigger detractor than the death penalty itself.

-Zingil's player

Every guild that is recoded .... grinding guild stats is useless. People do it so they can be on the careers page. So once you get to some title or small amount of qxps .... you are capped. And I would bet for most .... it is capped with the xps it takes to go form legend to myth at worst.

So you may need 3 gazillion qxps to get the last title .... of supreme supreme guy .... but you capped your guild power when you hit small large guy title.

Ydred
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Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Ydred » 24 Jan 2014 20:15

Amorana wrote:
zar wrote:I want to add some coins for polishing it:
You just took everything I disliked about the idea and doubled down. Bravo, haha.

I guess we can certainly say opinions vary widely.
Dont worry, you arent the only one. I tend to find Zars thoughts very opposite of mine most of the time also.

The style of game he wants to play would be one I would never enter.

But apparently there is a midground for us so far as we are both still playing now.

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Amorana
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Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Amorana » 24 Jan 2014 20:16

One thing I have been trying to get at, and I hinted to in my last post before removing it, is that if Genesis' goal is to truly grow and attract new players, we have to think the way modern games think in terms of game design. People say they want Genesis not to be like any old MMO - but there's a reason that MMOs attract our types of players and it isn't all graphics. We have to stop living in the past.

20+ years ago, there was a popular game called Mario. When you died, you had a limited number of lives. When you ran out of lives, you had three continues. When you ran out of continues, you started over. This was an unpopular game design, because players didn't want to lose hours of progress in a game and have to replay it all. So gradually games moved away from this. First there were limited lives but infinite continues. This solved some issue, but people still didn't like losing progress in a level on death, so eventually death and continues were scrapped in terms of checkpoints. This started out as once per level or right before a boss at a station you had to use. Still not good enough. Now games auto checkpoint as you move through an area.

Similarly, the first HUGE success MMO, Everquest, started out with PVP/PVE that had a system where if you died you lost all the XP you had attained in your current level, and in PVP, someone could loot all the gold you were carrying. Players didn't like this. So onward progress marched towards WoW where presently you die, PVP has absolutely no effect, and PVE only has the effect of some durability damage to your items. In these games, PVP thrives. If there are 2 members of differing factions in a zone, they will eventually attack each other. However, in Genesis, it has stagnated. People are concerned with stats and how long it will take them to make them up. The current system and the proposal do nothing to alleviate these fears for new players.

So why would a new player stay? You come to a game to have fun. When death is a punishment as harsh as present or as proposed, it makes the game less fun than what the common "newbie" can find elsewhere. We have become so conditioned to death and our system that some of us want it to be even more harsh. We're jaded. New players are not.

So at the end of the day the fundamental question is do we want Genesis to grow? If the answer is yes, we need to take hints from tried and true approaches that will attract new players and keep them. If the answer is no, then we should continue down the path of harsh death penalties until we stagnate and stop playing altogether.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Ydred
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Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Ydred » 24 Jan 2014 20:30

Amorana wrote: Alot of goodness.
Everything you said was spot on.

Increase our current qxps by 2-4times. And decrease death so that whatever its amount you are extremely pacifistic and recover fully at touchy.

Would be a step in the right direction.

The game those you call jaded envision .... I already am moving back to WoW under the current system. As I expect the new expansion will be more to my liking than Pandas.

Sort of funny though ..... trying to find an agreement is not always possible. I like what I like.

It reminds me of trying to explain why I enjoy Bjork so much. I just cant to some. Plain impossible.

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