Death Penalty Opinions

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Should the game return to having some kind of exp-penalty when a character dies?

Yes
36
69%
No
16
31%
 
Total votes: 52

User avatar
gorboth
Site Admin
Posts: 2306
Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Location: Some old coffin

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by gorboth » 29 Jan 2014 21:08

Alright, it is clear to me that though none of you have had a chance to experience it to really know how it feels, there is too much dislike of this theoretical system to make me want to try it out.

Let's try something much simpler, as suggested by Kas. What would it be like if:
  • Death results in 5% loss of non-quest exp.
  • Death recovery is removed.
And ... that's it. Simple, straightforward, much less harsh than before. Previously, we've been dealing with a loss of 1/5 of all non-quest exp. Here, it would be only 1/20. But, it would mean that you have to work harder to earn back what you've lost, and we no longer guarantee that people can rest on their laurels with regard to how big they have ever gotten.

To address the issue of the need to re-spec one's stats, we could introduce some thematically valid transformation service, wherein you could shuffle your stat values (for example, trade your dex with your int, etc.) To make it something people don't do with whimsical impunity, we could have a sliding cost, something like this:

Code: Select all

    Novice                1 gold
    Greenhorne            3 gold
    Beginner              6 gold
    Apprentice            1 platinum
    Wanderer              2 platinum
    Adventurer            4 platinum
    Adept                 8 platinum
    Great Adventurer     16 platinum
    Veteran              32 platinum
    Expert               64 platinum
    Rising Hero         128 platinum
    Hero                256 platinum
    Titan               512 platinum
    Champion           1024 platinum
    Legend             2048 platinum
    Myth               4069 platinum
Thoughts?
G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

User avatar
Zingil
Apprentice
Posts: 39
Joined: 09 Jan 2011 13:46

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Zingil » 30 Jan 2014 00:29

Pfft! Back when I was a greenhorne we lost a third of our combat experience, a full third I tell you! And no reduced brute level either! General experience hadnt been invented and even the tiniest of orcs could kill the biggest champion with a single blow!

-Zingil's player (feeling old)

Jooli
Adventurer
Posts: 99
Joined: 14 Jun 2011 16:01

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Jooli » 30 Jan 2014 11:57

I would prefer it to be like it is today rather then a 5% loss with no recover. I've several times the last years died many times in a row, and not willingly. If you're unlucky/curious and die many times in a row, it would be much worse then todays system.

User avatar
Kas
Legend
Posts: 771
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Kas » 30 Jan 2014 13:41

What about 5% plus some sort of recovery then?
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Makfly
Champion
Posts: 598
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Makfly » 30 Jan 2014 14:49

I like the possibility for stat-redistribution, but I think it should be more expensive - Like x5 or 10 of what you listed.
Apart from that then I was thinking your earlier proposal sounded better, but at least this new proposal is incrementally better than our previous system.


I love the communication and community involvement that you, and the rest of the current Wizard crowd do. But I have a hard time believing that you, or anyone, will be able to come up with a system that would not be recieved with negativity or (worse) indifference. I'm only writing that to continue to encourage you to ask for feedback, listen to it and then daring to make a decision, without necessarily seeking absolute consensus when attempting to innovate fundamental game-design decisions of Genesis.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Zar
Hero
Posts: 393
Joined: 21 Feb 2011 19:17

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Zar » 30 Jan 2014 15:07

Typo:
gorboth wrote:

Code: Select all

    
    Myth               4069 platinum
:twisted:

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Zhar
Wizard
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Zhar » 30 Jan 2014 15:48

And how about creating a "cusshion"? Make a cap at champion level (bear with me for a while here). Everyone who reaches champion is now considered to have max level. You still gain xp, stats and all that, but they deteriorate over time if you're not active also, there's a death penalty (with no recovery) that can be cusshioned by this "above max" exp and stats.

I understand that people don't like death penalty since over the past years Genesis has pretty much turned into "grow your stats" game, as was mentioned earlier in this thread. There's virtually no PvP to speak of, wars between guilds have pretty much died out and past certain point there really isn't much to do except the grind.

What we need to figure out here is a system that will somehow put a stop to this trend (you're still rewarded for being big and active, but it isn't the end all, be all thing) and get other key game features (like PvP) back on the list of people's activities (and preferably quite high on this list too).

Death has always been a means to control character growth in Genesis. Back when there were much less mortal levels and people were smaller in general it wasn't such a problem. People didn't fear taking part in PvP or dying since it didn't change much and they were able to recover in a relatively short timeframe. Ever since the new mortal levels were introduced and death penalties have been reduced/waved/recovery introduced etc. character growth simply spirraled out of control and, as I see it, they have simply "outgrown" the game. There is very little - if any - challenge for them to be found in the world and all that matters is being bigger than the other big guys. The only way to solve it is through death. Give it meaning, give it power.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Jooli
Adventurer
Posts: 99
Joined: 14 Jun 2011 16:01

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Jooli » 30 Jan 2014 17:18

As an avid fan of PVP, I have to disagree Zhar. It was extremely hard to recover from death back in the days. I remember spending huge amounts of time after dying to get back to being able to do anything fun PVP. I think the decline in PVP relates more to the number of people around. There are so few players, it's hard to get into situations where it is fun to PVP. I've had a few good fights over plains in Krynn the last years, for a while nearly every day. This is an example where the game promotes (and to a tiny margin rewards) PVP. I think the way to get people to fight eachother is rather by rewarding, then increasing the damage done when you do lose a fight.

Windemere
Expert
Posts: 286
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 05:37
Location: Winterpeg

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Windemere » 30 Jan 2014 17:46

We are starting to delve into the realm of what could make PvP fun again.

If you look back in this thread (or was it another, I'm too lazy to check) there are a variety of conversations and suggestions to make PvP more palatable and more fun. I think warzones and areas to conquer with some sort of tangible reward are up there with some other ideas suggested in respect to points and a concept of "currency" for PvP participation.

Anyways, I won't hijack anymore, but just to let you know there was conversation on it and you could join in with that! Lets focus on Death Options.

I started playing this game in 1995/96. So, I may not be the oldest oldie around, but I've been here consistently for 18/19 years. I remember old death/crit combination that would make everything deadly to anyone! Small orc could crit you and take you out. I also remember a lot of game mechanics from the player side stunk too. So, things have certainly changed and I'd say for the better for the most part.

Death was something I didn't really fear, to be honest, and this is speaking from my own personal perspective. When you hit Champion (the old max title) I stopped worrying about stats. If someone was a champion and we were at war I would fight them as I was also a champion. If I died, it sucked, but I never really thought about stats.

I think the idea of a cushion really only suits people who are huge power players. What if you aren't a champion, you can just lose 5% all the way down to your qxp? The cushion as is right now is your quest xp. You can never go below the amount of quest xp you have. This is why it is important and why you should do as many quests as you can.

My suggestion is to have it be something simple, like the 5%, but if you are below champion (or another determined size) you get recovery. Not everyone needs recovery, but giving it to the smaller folks, those who are new to the realms and are learning the ropes, for example, would be awesome. I would even go so far as to say that if you are under Wanderer/Great Adventurer (somewhere in there) you don't lose ANY xp when you die. This would make it easier for people starting and moving up to get a handle on what is going on without the risk. If we are talking PvP, what GA is going to take on a Myth just because they don't lose xp?

Anyways, just some ideas and such.

Windemere

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Kiara » 30 Jan 2014 18:16

gorboth wrote:Alright, it is clear to me that though none of you have had a chance to experience it to really know how it feels, there is too much dislike of this theoretical system to make me want to try it out.

Let's try something much simpler, as suggested by Kas. What would it be like if:
  • Death results in 5% loss of non-quest exp.
  • Death recovery is removed.
And ... that's it. Simple, straightforward, much less harsh than before. Previously, we've been dealing with a loss of 1/5 of all non-quest exp. Here, it would be only 1/20. But, it would mean that you have to work harder to earn back what you've lost, and we no longer guarantee that people can rest on their laurels with regard to how big they have ever gotten.

To address the issue of the need to re-spec one's stats, we could introduce some thematically valid transformation service, wherein you could shuffle your stat values (for example, trade your dex with your int, etc.) To make it something people don't do with whimsical impunity, we could have a sliding cost, something like this:

Code: Select all

    Novice                1 gold
    Greenhorne            3 gold
    Beginner              6 gold
    Apprentice            1 platinum
    Wanderer              2 platinum
    Adventurer            4 platinum
    Adept                 8 platinum
    Great Adventurer     16 platinum
    Veteran              32 platinum
    Expert               64 platinum
    Rising Hero         128 platinum
    Hero                256 platinum
    Titan               512 platinum
    Champion           1024 platinum
    Legend             2048 platinum
    Myth               4069 platinum
Thoughts?
G.
I think it's exactly what we need.

Its very simple and easy to understand, it doesnt hurt THAT much, but you'd prefer not to meet Lars.

I dont agree that it should be different for different mortal levels, or come with recovery or anything. Mainly because it complicated things. You lose a small portion of you XP. Simple, easy, logical. Besides, if you're small, 5% is really not much at all anyways. And I think even youngsters should experience the dangers of the world. I am not so sure no penalty at all is _better_ for a truly new player. Personally I would think it's more fun to experience Genesis for the first time WITH the dangers, than without them.

As for a cushion... yeah I get the idea. I'd love a cap at champion, and XP above that goes into other benefits. Like death cushions, skills-trees, and other things that have been suggested in the past. But thats such a big and controversial change that maybe is too big to discuss in this thread...? I mean it would be the biggest change Genesis has seen since I started playing at least.

Anyway,
The only potential problem I see is still the problem with 5% and no recovery is leaving guilds. Today many people, especially big ones, meet the Sparkle giants 10 times or so to die down to veteran level, and then fairly quickly, with recovery, grind up their guild XP in the new guild. The question is... what happens now? Sure you can still kill yourself 50 times on those ogres... and then grind yourself up again _without_ recovery. But will people do that? Or will be people be very skeptical about leaving their guilds now? And is that good or bad?

I dont remember how we did back when we didnt have recovery? Did people still die down to veteran? Did people switch guilds without bothering about their potential lack of quick GXP?

Anyway, myself I think grinding is too boring to ever have bothered with this suicidal thing, and I think the whole concept of it is pretty silly. And I'd be embarrassed to explain it to a truly new player too... so I would not mind losing that part. But I have a feeling many others, especially big players, would? Or? What do you Myth++ people say? Would you miss the recovery?

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