Death Penalty Opinions

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Should the game return to having some kind of exp-penalty when a character dies?

Yes
36
69%
No
16
31%
 
Total votes: 52

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Zhar
Wizard
Posts: 782
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Zhar » 30 Jan 2014 21:28

Jooli wrote:As an avid fan of PVP, I have to disagree Zhar. It was extremely hard to recover from death back in the days. I remember spending huge amounts of time after dying to get back to being able to do anything fun PVP. I think the decline in PVP relates more to the number of people around. There are so few players, it's hard to get into situations where it is fun to PVP. I've had a few good fights over plains in Krynn the last years, for a while nearly every day. This is an example where the game promotes (and to a tiny margin rewards) PVP. I think the way to get people to fight eachother is rather by rewarding, then increasing the damage done when you do lose a fight.
My post wasn't really about PvP. I'm more interested in the very basis for this discussion: What purpose should death serve? Is it a penalty for one, reward for another? It it means to control character growth? Is it to promote or discourage certain behavior?

This are the questions we should be asking ourselves. If we can figure out what death's ultimate purpose it, we can go from there. If it has to be just a penalty, then why not just lose nothing upon death but being unable to gain cexp for x time afterwards?
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Althyrian
Apprentice
Posts: 26
Joined: 06 Nov 2011 19:43

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Althyrian » 31 Jan 2014 10:22

The initial suggestion from Gorboth was:

1) When you die you loose some experience (this is what happens now)

2) To get that experience back you must spend time playing the game (also what happens now)

3) At the point you recover the experience you lost when you died, you also get all the non quest experience you accumulated while you were recovering from death. (think of this as a bonus - a reward for taking the time to recover)

How this occurs is not that important. What is important is that time it takes to recover is much shorter, you don't have to grind while you recover but you can if you want, and you never actually get any smaller, only bigger (as long as you continue to play that is).

With as much respect as possible, I would like to suggest that those people who do not not like this idea, or find it complicated, perhaps just need to think about it a bit more. It is a very simple, very constructive step in the right direction and I would hope it is not discarded before being implemented on a trial basis at the very least.

Zar
Hero
Posts: 393
Joined: 21 Feb 2011 19:17

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Zar » 31 Jan 2014 14:11

Althyrian wrote:The initial suggestion from Gorboth was:

1) When you die you loose some experience (this is what happens now)

2) To get that experience back you must spend time playing the game (also what happens now)

3) At the point you recover the experience you lost when you died, you also get all the non quest experience you accumulated while you were recovering from death. (think of this as a bonus - a reward for taking the time to recover)

How this occurs is not that important. What is important is that time it takes to recover is much shorter, you don't have to grind while you recover but you can if you want, and you never actually get any smaller, only bigger (as long as you continue to play that is).

With as much respect as possible, I would like to suggest that those people who do not not like this idea, or find it complicated, perhaps just need to think about it a bit more. It is a very simple, very constructive step in the right direction and I would hope it is not discarded before being implemented on a trial basis at the very least.
Indeed. I like this idea much more than 5% penalty.
Especially with removal of recovery.
ESPECIALLY with removal of current recoveries.

If Logg wants to return, he know that he has recovery and can grind some back. But when he login he just see that he is slightly violent without recovery period at all

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Irk
Rising Hero
Posts: 335
Joined: 14 Apr 2010 01:23

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Irk » 31 Jan 2014 14:29

zar wrote:
Althyrian wrote:The initial suggestion from Gorboth was:

1) When you die you loose some experience (this is what happens now)

2) To get that experience back you must spend time playing the game (also what happens now)

3) At the point you recover the experience you lost when you died, you also get all the non quest experience you accumulated while you were recovering from death. (think of this as a bonus - a reward for taking the time to recover)

How this occurs is not that important. What is important is that time it takes to recover is much shorter, you don't have to grind while you recover but you can if you want, and you never actually get any smaller, only bigger (as long as you continue to play that is).

With as much respect as possible, I would like to suggest that those people who do not not like this idea, or find it complicated, perhaps just need to think about it a bit more. It is a very simple, very constructive step in the right direction and I would hope it is not discarded before being implemented on a trial basis at the very least.
Indeed. I like this idea much more than 5% penalty.
Especially with removal of recovery.
ESPECIALLY with removal of current recoveries.

If Logg wants to return, he know that he has recovery and can grind some back. But when he login he just see that he is slightly violent without recovery period at all
AGREE!!

Actual idea described on common board is step back in my opinion.

But what is more sad, ppl get enjoy when someone died, lost eq and lots of exp and call it RP. Most fun should be from preparation and won fight, not that the guy is screwed for few/many weeks or like few example from near past stop playing. Death penalty was always big issue and i personaly know few players, who left the game cuz of it.

Makfly
Champion
Posts: 598
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Makfly » 31 Jan 2014 16:14

zar wrote:If Logg wants to return, he know that he has recovery and can grind some back. But when he login he just see that he is slightly violent without recovery period at all
Slightly violent at Myth?
I'm somewhat violet at Titan - I wonder how little quest-Xp I have compared to everyone else, but I bet the answer would be depressing. :-)

/apologies for slight derail
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

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Amorana
Expert
Posts: 296
Joined: 04 Nov 2013 20:26

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Amorana » 31 Jan 2014 16:46

Althyrian wrote:The initial suggestion from Gorboth was:

1) When you die you loose some experience (this is what happens now)

2) To get that experience back you must spend time playing the game (also what happens now)

3) At the point you recover the experience you lost when you died, you also get all the non quest experience you accumulated while you were recovering from death. (think of this as a bonus - a reward for taking the time to recover)

How this occurs is not that important. What is important is that time it takes to recover is much shorter, you don't have to grind while you recover but you can if you want, and you never actually get any smaller, only bigger (as long as you continue to play that is).

With as much respect as possible, I would like to suggest that those people who do not not like this idea, or find it complicated, perhaps just need to think about it a bit more. It is a very simple, very constructive step in the right direction and I would hope it is not discarded before being implemented on a trial basis at the very least.
My biggest problem with the original idea was, and remains, that you can only recover 2 hours per day (which unfairly affects casual players more than non-casual and is also a deterrent to new players), and the fact that brute would either make xping while recovering not worth it (i.e. being a slightly or somewhat violent expert stat-sized player gives almost no xp) or would make death-growth gain easily abused (i.e. if the stat size does affect brute, you stay in a state of death recovery so that you can always have a lower brute while teaming with bigger friends in order to power-level yourself to myth.)

It's not that it's complex. It's just highly-flawed.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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Amorana
Expert
Posts: 296
Joined: 04 Nov 2013 20:26

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Amorana » 31 Jan 2014 16:48

gorboth wrote:Alright, it is clear to me that though none of you have had a chance to experience it to really know how it feels, there is too much dislike of this theoretical system to make me want to try it out.

Let's try something much simpler, as suggested by Kas. What would it be like if:
  • Death results in 5% loss of non-quest exp.
  • Death recovery is removed.
And ... that's it. Simple, straightforward, much less harsh than before. Previously, we've been dealing with a loss of 1/5 of all non-quest exp. Here, it would be only 1/20. But, it would mean that you have to work harder to earn back what you've lost, and we no longer guarantee that people can rest on their laurels with regard to how big they have ever gotten.

To address the issue of the need to re-spec one's stats, we could introduce some thematically valid transformation service, wherein you could shuffle your stat values (for example, trade your dex with your int, etc.) To make it something people don't do with whimsical impunity, we could have a sliding cost, something like this:

Code: Select all

    Novice                1 gold
    Greenhorne            3 gold
    Beginner              6 gold
    Apprentice            1 platinum
    Wanderer              2 platinum
    Adventurer            4 platinum
    Adept                 8 platinum
    Great Adventurer     16 platinum
    Veteran              32 platinum
    Expert               64 platinum
    Rising Hero         128 platinum
    Hero                256 platinum
    Titan               512 platinum
    Champion           1024 platinum
    Legend             2048 platinum
    Myth               4069 platinum
Thoughts?
G.
*thumbs up*

I like it. Death has a little sting and discourages stupidity, but isn't worth leaving the game over. As long as people aren't spam killing without valid RP reasoning, I don't see a problem. I also really like the stat shuffling!
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Kiara » 31 Jan 2014 17:10

Makfly wrote:
zar wrote:If Logg wants to return, he know that he has recovery and can grind some back. But when he login he just see that he is slightly violent without recovery period at all
Slightly violent at Myth?
I'm somewhat violet at Titan - I wonder how little quest-Xp I have compared to everyone else, but I bet the answer would be depressing. :-)

/apologies for slight derail
I have finished all quests there is + som events XP and stuff, and is somewhat violent as small champ. So, no, you're not so far off. And Logg obviously isnt a slightly violent myth. Nobody can possibly be!:)

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Zhar
Wizard
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Zhar » 31 Jan 2014 17:16

Logg has been around for ages and there were many occasions where people were able to acquire qexp outside of questing (events, contests etc.). Not sure if it was taken away after all the changes and how much you could actually gain from it over the years (I don't think it would amount to such a big discrepancy).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Death Penalty Opinions

Post by Kiara » 31 Jan 2014 17:24

Kiara wrote:
Makfly wrote:
zar wrote:If Logg wants to return, he know that he has recovery and can grind some back. But when he login he just see that he is slightly violent without recovery period at all
Slightly violent at Myth?
I'm somewhat violet at Titan - I wonder how little quest-Xp I have compared to everyone else, but I bet the answer would be depressing. :-)

/apologies for slight derail
I have finished all quests there is + som events XP and stuff, and is somewhat violent as small champ. So, no, you're not so far off. And Logg obviously isnt a slightly violent myth. Nobody can possibly be!:)
As for the topic: Yes Alorrana, thats another thing to consider, using the lower brute to propel yourself to even faster growth and then eventually get a huge XP boost when you do decide to stop being in "death recover state". That idea comes with so many potential problems... which is why I prefer the simplest solution. Not only is it easier to understand, but it also comes with less risk of complications down the road. We have already mentioned many potential problems in this thread, and there's probably more that we havent though of.

Maybe some problem we havent though of with this 5% idea too, but I think the risk is much less. And personally, like I said, I like the general idea more too.

Irk: I agree with you about PVP rewards should be the fun in winning, not the fun in knowing you messed up for someone else. But in my opinion the 5% penalty isnt there so people can hurt someone. I mean it's really too small for that anyway. No, I think the need for a death penalty is that it is something you'd want to avoid. Simply to add some danger and thrill to both PVP and PVE encounters. Without it, I think much of all those "whew, I almost died"-moments will be lost. And I personally want to keep them.

Most game do have a small penalty for losing, which keeps things exciting, but not so big you dont wanna play again. I think we should just do the same. It works in millions of games, I think it'll work here too.

I think the other suggested idea more or less isnt a penalty at all. You can just go on as before knowing you'll be as big or bigger in a week or so. In PVP it feels like the EQ lost would be the greater penalty... And in PVE... well I dont think it adds much danger to the realms if you really dont lose anything. You'll automatically get it back anyway so... its not really a loss, and nothing to "fear" when traveling the realms.

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