Death Penalty Opinions

[Makfly]

I think you are right - Currently we're focusing on the third link in a chain that could look like this:

Balance issues -> PvP issues -> Death penalty issues

Right now the focus is on solving the Death penalty mechanics, where the underlying problem is perhaps a PvP issue, which in turn is a balance issue, and you cannot fix link 2 or 3 without also fixing the first link.

[Kiara]

I think you are right - Currently we're focusing on the third link in a chain that could look like this:

Balance issues -> PvP issues -> Death penalty issues

Right now the focus is on solving the Death penalty mechanics, where the underlying problem is perhaps a PvP issue, which in turn is a balance issue, and you cannot fix link 2 or 3 without also fixing the first link.

Yeah thats how I think the PVP order of problems would be currently.

However, lets remember death penalty is not only PVP related. My guess is that the last bunch of years causes of death would rank like this:

1. Suicides to gain GXP / change race, etc.
2. Leaving guilds.
3. Quests.
4. Other PVE related deaths.
5. PVP.

Thats a guess of course, but thats what I think.

I dont think a change to death will do much good for PVP, but it will have a big impact on other types of deaths. Personally I have always thought this suicidal down to veteran thing is pretty silly so I wouldn't mind a system without that. Having a lesser penalty for quest-related deaths and other "clumsy" deaths would probably be nice too. Idling in the wrong place, being overly brave somewhere, entering the wrong place being the wrong race, and so on... thats what I like most about the 5% suggestion. Not the PVP implications, but the PVE ones. It'll keep things dangerous, but it wont be devastating when you mess up...

But that is why I wonder what we want to accomplish.

If it's to fix disheartened players who die due to NPCs / quests / random chance / own clumsiness than I think it's a good change!
If it's to get rid of the "suicide system", and introduce another way to rebalance stats, then I think it's a good change!
If it's to make PVP funnier, of make people who die in PVP less disheartened, then no, I dont think it will have much impact. Maybe a somewhat positive effect on those who have big stats and die, but the problem will still remain, just slightly more hidden.

Most of the focus in this thread has been on PVP, but I think it's perfectly fine to target those other deaths as well. Maybe PVP wont be helped, but I like the 5% suggestion when it comes to improving the death experience in other types of deaths. Much more so than the recovery by time thing.

[Althyrian]

My biggest problem with the original idea was, and remains, that you can only recover 2 hours per day (which unfairly affects casual players more than non-casual and is also a deterrent to new players), and the fact that brute would either make xping while recovering not worth it (i.e. being a slightly or somewhat violent expert stat-sized player gives almost no xp) or would make death-growth gain easily abused (i.e. if the stat size does affect brute, you stay in a state of death recovery so that you can always have a lower brute while teaming with bigger friends in order to power-level yourself to myth.)

It's not that it's complex. It's just highly-flawed.

Amorana - here are some things to consider

1) Casual players will always be at a disadvantage under any system. If you play less you grow/advance less and recover from death more slowly. This is not any different then it is now. However, the numbers given by Gorboth are easily adjusted and could also include a time passage variable.

So if, for example, a casual player could have recovered at 2 hours per day over 5 days they will also recover if they have played 5 hours total over a 7 day time period. So the quickest you can recover is 5 days if you play 2 hours a day but you will recover in 7 days if you have played a total of 5 hours in that time period. A sliding scale can solve problems new players may have with this.

2) I think the recovery over time idea only works if brute is left in place so you don't end up being a somewhat violent expert. This is very important and I assumed it would work this way. If it doesn't then its not such a good idea.

3) If two characters have the same amount of quest exp the smaller character gets more of a decrease in brute than the larger and so would benefit more from the decrease in brute during recovery than the larger. Therefore, if characters use this to grow faster, the smaller characters will have more of an advantage then larger ones. This is not a bad thing...Let players 'abuse' this if they want. It will probably mean that the average size gap will shrink over time which can only be a good thing.

What does this solve?

Well...I am pretty sure the recovery over time solution is only meant to lessen the severe penalty which larger characters suffer when they die. That is what seemed to initiate this discussion and is what the idea addresses most directly. It might mitigate the size gap problem after awhile but that problem is better solved by other solutions most people, unfortunately, don't want to consider.

With regards to the 5%-no recovery solution consider this:

1) Initially (mid to late 90's) players didn't mind dying (that much) because size difference was not that great and growth was easier and quicker.

2) Now players are focused on growth and want to avoid death at all costs.

3) With recovery the gains you made before death are made back at a faster rate. Any punishment without a recovery period completely erases some amount of growth and is in some sense a permanent punishment.

If you want PvP then you can't permanently punish players who engage in it and if you do punish players in this way you can't expect them to engage in PvP. You simply cannot have it both ways.

The 5% solution is definitely a step back and will do nothing to promote PvP.

The recovery over time solution solves the problem of death for larger characters, makes death less harsh for smaller players, allows a way to grow faster if you like being dragged around by bigger characters and is intended to, hopefully, promote PvP. We should at least give this a trial run to see how it works in practice.

[Chanele]

I think we should keep our old system with a small change:
You die and get recovery though you always end up at a preset "brute level" and stay there until fully recovered. Its the last few levels that are a pain in the ass anyway.

Problem fixed!

[Althyrian]

Alright, it is clear to me that though none of you have had a chance to experience it to really know how it feels, there is too much dislike of this theoretical system to make me want to try it out.

Perhaps the thing to do is to try it out and help people to develop a more informed decision. I think people will find it works great and come to like it pretty quickly.

[Kas]

I think I would go for Gorboth's initial idea (or a variation of it), than the flat out 5% - no recovery after some contemplation. Thinking about it, how long would it take huge myth to recover the loss without recovery? months? years?

I'm not sure spending months to recover losses has any future in Genesis at this point. It did work in the primetime of Genesis, and when people was dramatically smaller, but no longer. It may even be hard to justify 20 days of recovery regardless of size, even if it's a mild penalty compared to the current 20% nutkick.

I understand the wizards may not be able to please everyone regardless of solution, but players shouldn't loose a kidney and the left arm due to death.

Is there a magic bullet?

[OgreToyBoy]

Sterner soft cap solves statinflation.. But no change to recovery until I regained my stats :p

[Kas]

I think you are right - Currently we're focusing on the third link in a chain that could look like this:

Balance issues -> PvP issues -> Death penalty issues

Right now the focus is on solving the Death penalty mechanics, where the underlying problem is perhaps a PvP issue, which in turn is a balance issue, and you cannot fix link 2 or 3 without also fixing the first link.

I think balance issues will come naturally with the recoding of guilds but that's a separate process and one that seems to take much longer time compared to for example finding a better or intermediate solution to death and dying.

So, while fixing link 3 won't necessarily solve the whole puzzle, it's a start, it's progress.

[Chanele]

The current suggestion will not solve the puzzle...it actually sucks.

Kas: The mages did get a heads up which stats will count and many did reset their stats, should not the other unfinished guilds have the same opportunity?

[Kas]

The current suggestion will not solve the puzzle...it actually sucks.

Kas: The mages did get a heads up which stats will count and many did reset their stats, should not the other unfinished guilds have the same opportunity?

Which one? Gorboth's idea, or 5% - no recovery?

If you refer to the 5%, I see a few potential issues.