wars and warfare.

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Kas
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wars and warfare.

Post by Kas » 03 Feb 2014 11:14

Greetings.

We may see little or no wars/warfare these days. What is your opinion/thoughts on this in Genesis today?
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

Makfly
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Re: wars and warfare.

Post by Makfly » 03 Feb 2014 11:37

Size and guild imbalances in PvP are probably a barrier, but even if it was actually a level playing field, then who would be obvious candidates?
I can't really think of two guilds that have enough active members to participate in a guildwar against eachother.
So, if the imbalances were ironed out, and the community is the same, then perhaps the most likely scenario is good alliance vs evil alliance...Except the Alliance of Elnoven is pretty wingshot right now, isn't it?
One enabling factor is that in times of war, it seems that players start to flock around the guilds involved, at least I've seen that in the past on the "evil" side.

This is not even taking into consideration the death penalty, grind-fixated state-of-the-game and the community fallout that usually results from a guildwars.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Chanele
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Re: wars and warfare.

Post by Chanele » 03 Feb 2014 12:05

Kas: When Rangers gets their new bazookas i'll show you what guild war is all about ;-)

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Kas
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Re: wars and warfare.

Post by Kas » 03 Feb 2014 12:19

Dragonarmies and AA, are they for example compared as of about equal power to the goodie melees? Would they be fun to fight in a war?
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

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Zhar
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Re: wars and warfare.

Post by Zhar » 03 Feb 2014 15:01

Kas wrote:Dragonarmies and AA, are they for example compared as of about equal power to the goodie melees? Would they be fun to fight in a war?
Now, this is from the perspective of a player, not a wizard. Stuff I experienced when playing various melee guilds.

DA's are really strong, AA not so much, its glory days were in the time where people were a lot smaller and they had a lot of people so it was easy to zerg and pulp everyone to death. I believe that DA's have comparable power-level to the goodie guilds, BUT (and it's a big BUT) goodies get access to much better complimentary layman guilds (combat-wise) compared to the baddies. There is nothing on the side of evil that would give you anything even remotely comparable to what Thornlin Militia does (Templars don't even come close), shieldslam is nice too, but it's more restricted.

The biggest problem here (as I've seen it during my playdays) is that goodies get laymans that can close the gaps in their weaknesses (solo specials for Calians, additional defensive capabilities for everyone etc.) while evils are seriously lacking in this regard. Sure, they can opt for some half-assed equivalents (Templars, Necromancers) but for the most part they just have the DPS but no real way of mitigating it on the team basis (Necros vs Valar). It kind of fits the theme of evils being selfish and all, but I think that the overall balance tends to favor the goodies. Mind you, it's not that one guild is more powerful than another, it's that if you look at the broader picture the goodies have a much wider range of teamfight abilities available to them. Especially in the crowd control and damage mitigation fields (which are pretty important in PvP if you ask me).

This could be potentially alleviated if some of the specialized evil guilds were more accessible to new members and more attractive (*cough* PoT *cough*). As far as I can see PvP in Genesis at its current state is a bit too one-dimensional to be a really attractive way of spending time for people. But that's just my personal, subjective opinion.

I still think it's an interesting topic and everyone interested should definitely post their feedback and views on the matter, so the issues can be adressed.

Some food for thought on how various games approach the PvP balance:
1. WoW (pretty much MMO standard) - specialized classes with the holy trinity of Tank, Healer, DPS
2. Guild Wars 2 - moving away from the holy trinity, no dedicated healer, every class has some healing abilities, each class is also given abilities that create "combo fields" that can be used by any class to get additional effects out of theirs
3. Bloodline Champions - they managed to create a purely PvP game (WoW arena equivalent) with close to 30 classes, each with a unique set of 9 skills (no 2 skills are the same) and make it all balanced. How they approached it wasn't by balancing them 1v1 (as some will have huge advantages over the other) but based their balance on the 3 player team aspect and how each class contributes to the team and works with others. Surprisingly enough, they don't even have class-tiers, everything is equally viable at all stages of the game (from casual to highly competitive). There are semblances of the holy trinity though, since practically every team will use a healer (some teams are known for not using them but I guess they're a minority and I don't know the game inside-out). In theory, you could even play with 3 tanks and be successful.
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Kiara
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Re: wars and warfare.

Post by Kiara » 03 Feb 2014 15:37

I mainly think the problem, if it is a problem, that people simply dont want to PVP.

Guilds have all these treaties with their supposed enemies. It's all about caution. Nobody wants a war. So there are none.

I belong to probably the weakest occupational guild in the realms power wise, and the mages are probably the strongest guild, especially in PVP. But I decided to go to war against them anyway. Sure I cant actually fight them head to head, but I can still raid their city and guild, borrow stuff from them, and generally oppose them in every possible way.

Yes there are clear balance issues between many guilds, the recodes obviously backfired as the game has been much more imbalanced for a very long time, much more than it ever was before the recodes, and size differences are of course in the way as well. BUT... still, I think the main reason there isn't a war is because nobody wants one.

I've given it my best shot to start some conflict, however very few are really interested. Lots of people say they support me etc, but when it comes to opposing the mages openly nobody really dares or wants to bother. There's a few exceptions, but in general, most people I have come across have no interest in PVP and prefer to go about their usual business of grinding and EQ collecting.

The mages doesnt seem overly interested to fight either. Morrison seemed interested at first, but not anymore. Dont know if it's due to orders or anything else. Fluffy who says he loves PVP has not bothered at all either. Reasons unknown. I mean even though most people decline to join my little crusade, there still at least 4-5 people who's earned to be hunted and killed by mages but its been pretty quiet. I dont know why, maybe Kas can fill us in there.

So yeah... even when you do your best to pick a fight, even giving the advantage to the enemy by being small and weak when picking the fight, it seems the interest to fight is very small.

When we discuss the lack of PVP there are always the same usual excuses. Too few people around. Too big differences in size. Imbalanced guilds.

So what? It's about having fun. I've had fun so far. The RP-experience when I got trapped in the black tower with Celephias and Becka, and Jhael and Amorana RP-ing trying to bargain for my life, was really fun. Me and Pacal had a really fun night a few weeks ago, panicking around Minas Morgul, almost dying, but learning stuff, and then returning with new knowledge and preparations to make a mess in there the next day. Pacal said it was the most fun he's had in Genesis in a LONG time. And I agree.

Both these experiences have been sparked by simply WANTING a conflict, by breaking your own playing patterns and doing something else.

So I say, stop making excuses and give a shot at a conflict. What's there to lose? I mean really?

If you're in a a guild, stop being so cautious and boring, why not declare war against another guild? See what happens? It might actually be.... dare I say it.... FUN!

Imbalances and size differences do exist, but they arent completely impossible to overcome. I mean if Pacal can find a way to survive an encounter with a prepared Morrison, I am sure say AAs and Knigths could have fun figthing too... even if they arent perfectly balanced... If they wanted to. But if people dont WANT to PVP, then there's not much to be done. Then maybe we should forget about PVP and focus on making the game more about things people do want.

Kiara
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Re: wars and warfare.

Post by Kiara » 03 Feb 2014 15:48

Zhar: I must disagree with you on goodies and evils. If I wanted to PVP and have an edge would without doubt pick an evil guild.

A BDA/Blademaster is a great combo. Perhaps the deadliest there is in the game in terms of melee damage. Possibly a Calian/Milita or Calian/Blademaster can compete, but in solo fighting the BDA is obviously superior.

More or less any guild with AA layman will also be really good. Mercenary + AA layman for instance. Or Ogre + AA. Or monk + AA.

Both AA layman, Necros and pirates are great to boost your tanking capabilities. And for damage there's Blademasters and Minotaurs. If you want supportive spells you can become a worshipper or minstrel as they are both neutral. I dont know much about the templars so I cant really have an opinion there.

And lets not forget you can grind anywhere you like! And that you can choose from two occupational spellcaster guilds, instead of... well basically none. As Scops are in the process of changing and arent exactly true goodies either, just anti-undeads.

Oh and if you wanna pfight, the ogres and mages holds the best keys to crowd control currently. So there's a huge edge if you're evil. Yes, yes technically ogres are neutral I know. But an "army of darkness" with a mission to slaughter anyone they see is bound to attract more of an evil crowd though...:)

So nah. I'd say if anything evils have the edge in PVP currently.

Windemere
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Re: wars and warfare.

Post by Windemere » 03 Feb 2014 17:10

I think there are two issues and a possible idea for increasing the amount of conflict,

The first issue I see is that people are cautious. Maybe not for the reasons you might think like stats and such, but for the reasoning of keeping people around. If you think back to when the spirit circle was at open war with MM and Vamps a lot of the new apprentices who were reasonably new to the realms and had just gone through a lot of work to be chosen ended up hunted and killed quite regularly. I for one remember even after being apprentice if I woke up and was alone in the realms and some MMs or Vamps were awake, I'd likely not do very much because I knew I'd get hunted and I just wanted to play. So that I think is likely why the treaties with enemies might exist at least from this players perspective, having to worry about being attacked constantly is not always fun.

The second issue with PvP is the size disparity. We have beat this horse til it came back to life (good ol CPR) but it is really true. I'm a titan. SCOPs main enemy is MM really. ALL of them with the exception of Kas are HUGE Myths. Look at the size of the majority of the Spirit Circle and we can't compete with that. This is true for a number of guilds. Not everyone has a ton of uber myths and if you aren't one you can't hold your own against one, easily. As long as this size gap exists then PvP between players/guilds in this respect will be very limited or at least VERY one-sided.

Now, I've raised some issues, and so I would like to raise an idea. I've raised it before on other threads but it never really got traction. Not sure if it is because it is a bad idea or because it was buried, but let's see. If you were to create warzone areas like we have in Krynn, but more wide-spread and thematic between guilds that you could conquer and earn some sort of bonus for your guild I think that would be really exciting. Now, I know, you are thinking "But the biggies can just come and protect the area". You are right. But I'd like to suggest a different approach. Rather than basing the ability to conquer on simply killing, I think it should be based on task completion. The people in the area need assistance. They need you to gather something, kill something, find something, lead someone back, etc....and each time you do one of these tasks you earn points towards how much the people like you. If your group has the most points then that area is "yours".

We can still have some zones be kill only, that is fine. You can often find an opportunity to conquer an area when no one is awake to protect, or if you choose to do it when there is you are going to deal with those consequences. Having some zones be tasked based as well will allow for people to not just come in and kill everything to win. You actually have to assist and roleplay a bit to get them on your side.

Just something I was thinking about, let me know what you think.

Yours
Windemere

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Kas
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Re: wars and warfare.

Post by Kas » 03 Feb 2014 17:22

Or, imagine having a castle/territory to defend where everyone who enters are set to same avg (think the dungeon Gorboth coded). At that field/theatre of war, everyone is of equal size, and the battles depends on number, tactics, preparations and some similar keep-defence/takeover as seen in good old Dark Age of Camelot(Warhammer online), with ensures that once a keep is taken, it can't be retaken within a period of, let's say 24/48 hours. Meanwhile, players owning the keep gets additional benefits/access to shops etc.
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

Makfly
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Re: wars and warfare.

Post by Makfly » 03 Feb 2014 17:22

If you have a special "PvP zone", can't you just blend the dwarf at the gate to the Holm and the amulet for the newbie dungeon?
That way you HAVE to wear your allegiance-item (uniform or whatever) if you want to enter, and when you put it on, all stats are lowered to averaged-out human hero stats, but not raised if you do not have reached those stats yet.

That way you have:
  • An area specifically designated for PvP, so people can participate or avoid as they please
  • A level playing field in terms of size
  • Hopefully a level playing field in terms of guild-power when all guilds have been revised
If you could this rather simple idea with what you proposed, and what many other have proposed about incentives to participate, then you could have something of great fun, that many can participate in.

Getting that token can then be turned into a quest, a guild-specific task that can be rewarded to members reaching a certain criteria or whatever.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

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