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Apprentice

Joined: 06 Nov 2011 19:43
Posts: 26
Jhael wrote:
6) 1 Replies 61 Views (at time of edit)

Apparently everyone is willing to comment on various solutions, but not on what the underlying problems actually are? Guess we better solve it quick, whatever it is.

I realize I may come from a different perspective as everyone else, but my world is software development. When a client comes to my firm wanting a solution, we stop them right there and discuss the problem first. No one can accurately create a solution for a problem they do not fully understand. Oh, you want an inventory management system? No problem, let's just go ahead and build one for you. Oh, it doesn't do what you want because the problem wasn't managing inventory it was actually security because your inventory was going missing. The analogy doesn't hold perfectly here, but I hope you see my point.

Propose solution after solution for as long as you want (in other threads), nothing will be accomplished until we have serious discussions about what the problems actually are.


The problem is unlimited growth. The solution is a hard cap.


08 Feb 2014 00:27
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Apprentice

Joined: 06 Nov 2011 19:43
Posts: 26
Kvator wrote:
actually number 1 problem is genesis being outdated game (like all muds) - 15/20 years ago there was no real alternative in terms of online gaming, now there's plenty of other games to choose from (99% with graphics :D) - don't get me wrong - i still enjoy genesis, being this game to chill, but I don't think I would start mudding at all if there were games like LoL etc to choose from back then.


This is not really a problem but simply the reality we live in. Since it can't be changed we need to adapt to it and making sure the game appeals to the broadest audience possible should be the foremost priority of the wizard community. Simply recognizing any game with an impossible to overcome advantage given to a certain type of player is in fact not appealing to all the other types of players who might want to play it, would be a good first step in making sure this game, or any game, has a broad appeal. Unlimited growth simply does not fit into the type of game Genesis is designed to be. So we have all these issues with size, growth, death penalties, population, etc all of which trace themselves back to the simple fact that growth is not capped and players are not forced to find other avenues for enjoyment within the game.


Last edited by Althyrian on 08 Feb 2014 01:08, edited 1 time in total.



08 Feb 2014 00:39
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Apprentice

Joined: 06 Nov 2011 19:43
Posts: 26
Amorana wrote:
2) There is no "end-game content". There's no reason when you hit max level to stop grinding and find something else to do with your time. Even if there were a stat cap to fix size inflation / size gap, the only true reason to hit the cap would be so whenever your toon's guild got into a war, you could log in and kick some ass with others that were all at the cap. Caps are indeed bad for Genesis, if there isn't something better to take up a player's time.


This is the only point you made in your initial post I disagree with. Consider that many people have played genesis for 10+ years without reaching myth. They found a variety of activities to occupy their time with and it wasn't size grinding. The idea that we cant have a size cap because there is no end game content is completely false and in fact completely opposite of the situation that exists right now. The large variety of end game content that exists right now in Genesis cannot be taken advantage of because there simply is no end of game!!
-You can't waste time with RP because you need to grow.
-You can't waste time with with guild politics or administration because you have to grow.
-You can't waste time writing a book for any of the vast number of in game libraries because you have to grow.
-There is no one to read a book you might have written even you had the time because no one wants to waste time reading when they have to grow.
-You cant waste time mentoring new players because you have to grow.
-You cant waste time creating new characters to re-experience the fun of being small because you have to grow.
-If you have grown you can't risk PvP because if you die you will have to regrow which is a waste of time you could have been using to grow in the first place

As well, much of what would be end game content is very similar to size grinding and so the actual in game experience wouldn't really change all that much. (for example EQ gathering and raiding enemy guilds or controlled areas).

The truth of the matter is Genesis is overloaded with endgame content. What it lacks is the endgame.


08 Feb 2014 01:01
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Titan
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Joined: 05 Mar 2010 01:05
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Contrary to what tune Althyrian the one note band is playing, the problem why players don't stay is the degree of difficulty for Genesis is much, much higher and unforgiving than most modern free-to-play games.

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08 Feb 2014 03:59
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Champion

Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20
Posts: 610
Mersereau wrote:
Contrary to what tune Althyrian the one note band is playing, the problem why players don't stay is the degree of difficulty for Genesis is much, much higher and unforgiving than most modern free-to-play games.


But some DO stay. So if we only attracted more people we would be fine.

Yes its hard to learn how to play Genesis. Let's guess and say if 100 people try the game, only 1 stays and becomes a permanent and active player for years to come. I think thats a fairly conservative guess, hopefully our numbers are a little better than that in reality. But maybe it's not so far off...

Anyway,

So if we wanted to increase our active player base with 100 players, I would argue that it is easier to get 10.000 people to try the game (which results in 100 staying), than to fix all the flaws with balance, growth, steep learning curve, etc. And with a larger community, we will get more players, new players, who also will become wizards and help fix the flaws we have, and players who write new quest solutions, write on the forums, create their own forums/websites, and who knows what. More players will lead to lots of good things down the road and will help solve many current problems one way or another.


08 Feb 2014 04:33
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Titan
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Think about all the friends you have that have never played Genesis, but probably have played other games. How many would you suggest to try Genesis, that wouldn't get frustrated and want to quit playing it?

I wouldn't suggest Genesis as a game for any friends I haven't met from it, because it's stupidly hard given the way the quests are. By the way the rules are written you can't give much help, so if want to help them a lot you have to cheat? Is that really what you want to do? What message does that say?

In World of Warcraft or other modern games it's a hell of a lot easier.

Need help with a quest? Go to wowhead.com.

Need help speccing your character? Go to elitistjerks.com.

Need help not standing in the fire? Go to curse.com and download the proper mods.

I know Blizzard is in it to make money, but they wouldn't be at 7.8 million subscribers if the game was stupid hard, and didn't allow for assistance from the outside.

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-Mel Brooks


08 Feb 2014 05:12
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I know of two persons I showed Genesis in a not all to distant past, they all felt it took to much time with the obligatory quests and did not continue. Even with solutions and aid to kill stuff you have a bunch of quests that just take to much time and are hard to complete.
As a new player you will eventually notice you MUST do most quests to even have a remote chance of getting to a higher mortal title, sure you can grind all the way but you will have a hard time finding a good xp-group as great adventurer. Hell it's even hard being Legend :p


08 Feb 2014 11:41
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Wizard
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09
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OgreToyBoy wrote:
I know of two persons I showed Genesis in a not all to distant past, they all felt it took to much time with the obligatory quests and did not continue. Even with solutions and aid to kill stuff you have a bunch of quests that just take to much time and are hard to complete.
As a new player you will eventually notice you MUST do most quests to even have a remote chance of getting to a higher mortal title, sure you can grind all the way but you will have a hard time finding a good xp-group as great adventurer. Hell it's even hard being Legend :p


I believe I once introduced a solution to all of that. Put a hard cap on xp at the level of max qexp (which would go up as new quests are added). Then you get the option of doing just a couple of quests (after all, RP is encouraged here and it'd be good if people did even several quests, just to get a feel of it) and simply combat your way through the rest, or just quest until you reach max level. Such approach would even allow for introduction of OCC guilds that give 0 combat aid, like merchants (who could make AH a completely player-driven affair, with guards to be killed so the shop can be raided, safes to be cracked etc.), thieves and the like, shifting focus of the game towards more player interaction.

Of course, the introduction of the above would necessitate the inclusion of some form of manual stat redistribution (in case of guild hopping for example) and cap not affecting xp for guildstat purposes. Death penalty would become obsolete then. Questing would be rewarded, since it would allow you to grind guildstat faster, mindless grind for stats would be over, PvP could become a factor again and PvE would become a real challenge, especially in search for the best gear.

This, in my opinion, would create a healthy environment for everyone to enjoy the game. But, as usual, people will most likely be opposed to such approach...

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08 Feb 2014 13:37
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Champion

Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20
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Mersereau wrote:
Think about all the friends you have that have never played Genesis, but probably have played other games. How many would you suggest to try Genesis, that wouldn't get frustrated and want to quit playing it?

I wouldn't suggest Genesis as a game for any friends I haven't met from it, because it's stupidly hard given the way the quests are. By the way the rules are written you can't give much help, so if want to help them a lot you have to cheat? Is that really what you want to do? What message does that say?

In World of Warcraft or other modern games it's a hell of a lot easier.

Need help with a quest? Go to wowhead.com.

Need help speccing your character? Go to elitistjerks.com.

Need help not standing in the fire? Go to curse.com and download the proper mods.

I know Blizzard is in it to make money, but they wouldn't be at 7.8 million subscribers if the game was stupid hard, and didn't allow for assistance from the outside.


Like I said, I dont think we should compete or compare ourselves to WoW and it's community.

Genesis is designed to be hard. For good and for worse. A small portion of people is probably going to enjoy it IS hard to learn and hard to master. I mean it's a game where most players create their own scripts to play. Obviously it's not a mainstream game and I dont think we need to make it into one to get players to stay.

Yes, most who try it will find it too hard. Thats how it is. But not everyone who tries WoW will stay either. I tried it when the beta came, didn't stay. Most of the games I try these days I try for 15 min, then I usually think they're basically "too childish", have too easy quests/puzzles, and really poor story.

And I have never ever used guides and stuff for ANY game I have ever played, since I generally think it removes the fun to read the manual on how to do it. I have used quest solutions for Genesis though, but I have also completed at least a third of our hundreds of quests without them. And enjoyed both ways of questing.

But thats me.

People are different, they enjoy different things. WoW and similar games are something a lot of people enjoy. But not me. And not everyone. It's mainstream gaming these days, people are used to it, and most people enjoy the general level of challenge, etc, so they and similar games have a really big numbers of players. But like I said Genesis belongs to a very small and very different niche of games.

I think there are people around who WANT a challenge. No, its not for everyone, far from it. But I am almost certain if we only do some serious promotion we will find enough players who like the game just as it is. And will become part of the community and eventually help develop and improve it further.

That being said, sure we could make things a little more logical and easy to learn. But we should not forget what we have either. And what we have is something that a group of people actually enjoy. Not everyone. But some do. And if we enjoy it, others will too. Maybe not your sister and your WoW friends, but some will find our world and our challenges to be fun and interesting. All we need to do is let more people know we exist, and I am almost certain enough players will actually stay. Maybe 1 in 50, 1 in 100, but thats probably enough. We dont need that many.


08 Feb 2014 14:55
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Apprentice

Joined: 06 Nov 2011 19:43
Posts: 26
Mersereau wrote:
Contrary to what tune Althyrian the one note band is playing, the problem why players don't stay is the degree of difficulty for Genesis is much, much higher and unforgiving than most modern free-to-play games.


Of course, you're right about both the tune and the difficulty. And there are ways the difficulty could be lessened that wouldn't really effect the game that much (especially regarding quests) But just because most people are not and will never be interested in playing here, does not mean there are not some people who might be interested and would enjoy it immensely if the fundamental dynamics of the game (growth, PvP, death) simply made more sense and related better to one another.

The game is an open PvP environment with no cap on size and and a death penalty. That simply makes no sense. You can have any 2 of these but all three together have a fundamental dysfunction built into them. What makes the lack of a cap even more dysfunctional all by itself is the inherent advantage this gives to already established players which will cause people to not play simply because they are prevented from engaging with many aspects of the game on an equal footing with everyone else.

Once someone figures out the amount of grinding required to reach Myth, and that's not even the end because there is no cap on size, why would they continue to play unless they were the type of player that enjoys grinding for size?

How is a relatively new player, who wants to be engaged in guild politics and conflict going to be able to effectively role play if they can't be taken seriously in PvP because of size differences between themselves and a 15+ year myth who spends most of their time grinding.

What if a player really likes the theme and people of a specific guild but finds it difficult to play as a member because the guild is a natural enemy of some other guild and they get attacked and or killed every time they venture out into the world simply because they don't want to waste their time grinding up to a size where this might not happen?. Or worse (perhaps), the guilds who are natural enemies have some form of truce to avoid PvP because dying is just too much of a penalty.

To think that giving an advantage like unlimited growth to payers just because they have been here a long time will not effect who chooses to play this game in the future is almost delusional. This detail of the game has probably caused more people to leave genesis who otherwise would have enjoyed it here then any other single factor.

Yes the game is hard, but that doesn't mean it can't be fair and playable by everyone equally.


Last edited by Althyrian on 09 Feb 2014 09:45, edited 1 time in total.



08 Feb 2014 23:42
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