Herbs

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Icarus
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Herbs

Post by Icarus » 13 Dec 2014 07:16

Ok, time to take this discussion, and this time I want someone from the administration to actually come up with a serious answer to why this should continue to be as it is rather than revert to, or at least get as close as possible to, what it used to be when it comes to herb consumption.

Example A:
An expert spends 30 minutes herbing in Gont, 10 minutes herbing in Emerald, 20 minutes on Holm, 20 minutes in Calia and 60 minutes in Middle Earth.
(S)He obtains gear of a decent quality, now, equipped with the proceeds of his/her herbing it is possible to kill everything in LoD in one go, and even have a few herbs to spare. Takes 40 minutes. Wasn't even needed to have imbues for it.
--- Total time: 3 hours.
Example B:
A legend obtains basic gear, goes to LoD and kills everything in 30 minutes.
--- Total time: 30 minutes.
Example C:
A rising hero spends 6+ hours herbing various places. A myth gets angry with the rising hero, reason not important, and wishes to kill the rising hero. The rising hero manages to twart the myth's attempt to slay it, by the use of multiple herbs, and even cause so much damage to the myth, who has NOT prepared itself to the same extent, that the myth have to withdraw.
All valid examples. A legend can clean LoD in 30 minutes, an expert who is not limited to 1 herb per 60 seconds can do it in 40. A rising hero mercenary of the old mercs DID spank a myth vampire, thanks to having a lot of herbs. These things sparked a change in herbs into what we have now.

Well, what do we have now?

- Preparing is bad, and with this change even punished, there is no real benefit of spending time herbing unless you're so small, it's the easiest way to grow or earn money.
- Magic is still good. To a point. When you're out of mana, you're screwed and have a downtime, which might even affect others, as your team might require your magic to keep going.

I wonder, are there any statistics on how the active player #'s were during the time that the change was made?

Why does it have to be so that if a player wishes to spend hours upon hours herbing, and then can't use the herbs in the same way as before?
Alternatives are there, a herb can be made "bigger"; Heavier, more food etc, it would make a natural limit, since we know that low "stuffed" will make you tire a lot faster, giving the need for herbs, which will fill you up, or magic, which again will consume mana, which again will require herbs etc etc.

As it is now, magic guilds are quite handicapped due to this. Potions for healing are close to useless, potions for mana? Yes, there is one, it's toxic.


If it's just a "well, everyone can get herbs in such quantities that we can't have it so that everyone can eat as much herbs as they want anymore", then perhaps limit access somewhat. Guess what, if that's the case, remove herbalism as a general skill over 10 skillevels, remove the Gardeners, remove herbalism from all racial guilds. Make it harder to get, rather than ruin the game for those who are actually dependant on them, like Rangers, Valars, Elementals, SCoP, Mages, PoT, Necros & Academics...
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Snowrose
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Re: Herbs

Post by Snowrose » 13 Dec 2014 08:07

there are 4 types of gamers archetypes due to some tests.

Fighter... people who like grinding
quester(explorer) ... people who discovery and puzzles
collector(crafter) ... gotta catch em all
Social (Rper) ... mostly hang out where ppl are

most people have a bit of all of these aspects but focus on one or two
a social fighter probibly likes raid teams more than rp as an example.
a collector fighter is more about money/imbues than level
a social collector probibly enjoys keeping racks full
a social quester probibly likes making maps/walkthroughs for friends


genesis does favor those with fighter/quester archetypes the people who just power level day and night absorbing all content then when they are out of quests/exploration just bot around.

but the fact genesis does have things like herbs/potions the ability to dig up pouches of gems in dark caves is what keeps the collector/crafters around. not much is perminate in this game so for the collector having a reason to collect is key especially if said collector hates fighting.

I could see making potions or teas or herb bundles for classes that are herb reliant to give the herbs more of a punch making herb effects scale up like alchol or food and thus achiving a more scalable effect so its not overpowerful to the young and its still worth the time for the myths and legends.

the recent event really did show who was in what personalty types.
those only interested in qexp remained idling in hq for the 2 weeks
those of the competitive spirit were first in line for all the event feature
collector/quester types were the ones doing all safaris/pub crawl with
no hope of winning social people were those guys hanging out in
turkey fightclub even when they were on cooldown and after event was over

i think the sheer number of people who were in safari/turkeyfights even though no exp was being offered
and even some that werent just stroking thier turkey untill they needed 100 health
points out not everyone who plays gen is all about the XP

this i do agree any aspect of the game that is NOT about smashing mobs over and over should be cultivated
and there should be just as many reasons/rewards for those that do take the time to herb for hours as there is
for the people that seek the leet gear. maybe let herbs occationally drop imbues.
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Re: Herbs

Post by Greneth » 13 Dec 2014 16:48

Problem is magic was made more potent, there are a few items already and other little tricks to increase mana regen. And a RH should never be able to tank or even damage a Myth. Well at least a fighter, no matter how unprepared. So the handicap isnt really a handicap.

Furthermore there are several other things available for smaller people to increase their combat. Comes at a nice price but well youre much smaller.

Then you have to factor in which guilds youre using to compare. For instance I can think of a much better place for an expert ranger then LoD which requires no herbs and much better gains. I can think of a much better place for an expert Glad then LoD with much better gains too. Comparing the two and the ranger will still win the exp race.

If you have magic you will never be able to keep up with a fighter in terms of clearing time. If you have stealth you will never be able to keep up with a fighter. These are the drawbacks to said guilds. Youre given spells in which certain situations you can squash whatever a fighter may attempt to do.

Ive obtained the ancient chainmail by myself, due to the use of spells. No fighter can do that. Ive been able to complete quests much easier by just sneaking past something, where a fighter cant even complete it without help.

I know of several reasons and which herbs a legend/myth would need. If they are clearing LoD its not for the experience I can tell you that. But if one wishes to Solo Qual? Yeah they bring herbs.

I wouldnt mind maybe seeing a boost in the effects of herbs based on your herbalism skill. But bringing back the old system is a no no.

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gorboth
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Re: Herbs

Post by gorboth » 13 Dec 2014 17:24

The old system changed every player in the game into a spellcaster, essentially, giving them the ability through unlimited herb consumption to perform feats of incredible recovery/buff. This was never part of game design. The evolution of herb use in the game evolved over many years, and was created at a time when Armageddon came every 24 hours (at least once, sometimes more.) Herbs did not save on your character in this time in the same way, and would dry out and become less useful if not stored properly. The idea originally made sense, because it basically worked out that you could use in an unlimited way the herbs that you were able to search for and find in THAT SAME SESSION OF PLAY.

I might consider your suggestion, Icarus, if we came up with a way to address the number of herbs a single player can have at one time. Not doing so makes herbs the ultimate trump, which they were most certainly never intended to be.

Possibilities:
  • Have herbs not recover - you must search for them anew each army or purchase them from an herb shop.
  • Have herbs have vastly greater weight/volume such that they naturally must be limited in a single inventory.
Now, I very much doubt you're going to convince the spellcasting guilds in the game that either of the above solutions works out to a better system if the only added benefit is that you can eat them without a cooldown.

G.
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Windemere
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Re: Herbs

Post by Windemere » 13 Dec 2014 20:23

As a Magic user I would not welcome either of these changes that Gorboth is proposing.

I spend a great deal of time collecting numerous herbs that serve a variety of purposes. Some of them are incredibly difficult to get due to their rarity and the fact that where they are found (Raumdor) does not allow for easy exploring or I need many of them as I go through them incredibly quickly when out and about being active. Having them be either limited or weigh a great deal would cause a number of problems that I am not interested in dealing with.

One option though, Gorboth, might be to limit the number of a particular herb you can eat in quick succession. Find a middle ground, OR, make it like Skunk Berries where eating too many can actually be fatal. So, rather than being able to use unlimited herbs, lets say 3 or 4 at any given time, then you must wait the time frame, or a new time frame, before using more.

Icarus
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Re: Herbs

Post by Icarus » 13 Dec 2014 20:41

gorboth wrote:Possibilities:
  • Have herbs not recover - you must search for them anew each army or purchase them from an herb shop.
  • Have herbs have vastly greater weight/volume such that they naturally must be limited in a single inventory.
Herbs can still recover, herbs could even be a bit bigger, without the need of vastly bigger. There should easily be implemented, unless they already have that property, that the herbs just required more space in the stomac, making eating many herbs something you'd have to use a lavatory to do.
Greneth wrote:Problem is magic was made more potent, there are a few items already and other little tricks to increase mana regen. And a RH should never be able to tank or even damage a Myth. Well at least a fighter, no matter how unprepared. So the handicap isnt really a handicap.
I don't know about you, Greneth, but a rising hero can still tank and take down a myth, and in the case in the example above, the RH took the fight into a saferoom, where neither of them could use specials. From there it was basically just a question of doing a little damage all the time and using herbs to heal up from the damage received. Giving the fact that Genesis is extemely equipment oiriented, even more so now with the imbues introduced, the fact that small players in superior gear can best huge players in crap gear isn't strange, even if you believe it to be.

Rising hero players take down huge enemies on a day to day basis, however, they use so much more time, that unless they're after specific items, the gain is low.
Greneth wrote:Then you have to factor in which guilds youre using to compare. For instance I can think of a much better place for an expert ranger then LoD which requires no herbs and much better gains. I can think of a much better place for an expert Glad then LoD with much better gains too. Comparing the two and the ranger will still win the exp race.
Of course there are better places to grind than LoD now, but for this I used LoD, since everyone know where LoD is, and it is the oldest existing grinding place on the Donut, and in grave need of an upgrade xp-wise. Another benefit of LoD is that compared to most other places, it's not overhunted, thus allows for a more continuous grind.
Greneth wrote:Problem is magic was made more potent, there are a few items already and other little tricks to increase mana regen.
Sure, magic was made more potent by introducing SCoP and upgrading the mages, but in the past, with the Mystics, magic was quite potent. The downgrade of herbs in the manner of 60sec/herb consumption haven't hurt these guilds much compared to guilds that are extremely herb focused, like Rangers. And he little tricks you mention, true, there are a few, the most notable one is limited to three items, the others are specific weapons, thus limited to those who use that particular weapon type and again, limited to a low number.

Again, making herbs require a lowered "stuffed" and increasing this, possibly even exponentially, would solve many of the problems, also removing the possibility for non-magic users vast herbing, increasing time between regrowth of herbs, increasing the time it takes to actually search for a herb etc are all ways this can be done, but in fact, the change punished those who spent a long time preparing, not those who grind on a daily basis with a minor consumption of herbs. Herb-shops would require an upgrade, to pay the worth of the herbs, and the (good) herbs needs to be upgraded in value, so that buying vast amounts would also make huge impact on your economy, while newbie herbers can make money enough to not need to be grinding for money by combat.

Giving the better herbs a higher skill to find than Gardeners provide could also be a solution, where the effect of the herbs is only a fraction of it's potential if you cannot identify it personally, regardless of actual knowledge...

As it is today, Genesis is, as Snowrose pointed out, very combat oriented, but more than that, it's mainly melee combat oriented. All who actually grind in the various "magic using guilds" either team up with fighters (smaller players who want to go after bigger foes and Diri comes to mind) or they go out and grind, using mainly melee and their magic for protection.

If this is what we want, why even have magic?
Windemere wrote:Some of them are incredibly difficult to get due to their rarity and the fact that where they are found (Raumdor) does not allow for easy exploring or I need many of them as I go through them incredibly quickly when out and about being active.
Raumdor is actually quite easy to explore, Windemere, perhaps you need a tour? And given the fact that people carry gear in exess of 50 kg or more at your size when traveling suddenly increase from 1 to 3 grams each to 30 to 50 grams each would make it heavier, yes, but not really a gamechanger. I'm currently carrying 1752 herbs and a qarraba to hold them in. the weight is negligeable, yes it should be at least 2.2 kg, perhaps as much as 5 kg, but due to pack properties of lowering items weigth when in containers, it's probably more like 1.6 kg or so. With a weight chance, this could increase to 16-40 kg... for almost 2000 herbs, and go ahead, Windemere, please say you need to carry that much to be able to be active. If you're not willing to put in the preparation time a magic user should have, perhaps you've chosen the wrong diretion in your characters life.
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Mortis

Re: Herbs

Post by Mortis » 13 Dec 2014 21:08

I don't think making herbs worse is a good solution. Making them heavier is not fun. Making them disappear fast is not fun. Making them be worth a lot of food isn't fun either.

Making them usable only once per minute is not fun either.

Letting them be unrestricted and allowing unlimited recovery is not cool.

I'd rather see a lessening of restrictions. How about 10 per 10 minutes? Or 1/30? Or 10 at a time every 5?

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gorboth
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Re: Herbs

Post by gorboth » 13 Dec 2014 21:11

Or, maybe, it ain't broke.

G.
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Icarus
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Re: Herbs

Post by Icarus » 13 Dec 2014 21:31

Mortis wrote:I don't think making herbs worse is a good solution. Making them heavier is not fun. Making them disappear fast is not fun. Making them be worth a lot of food isn't fun either.

Making them usable only once per minute is not fun either.

Letting them be unrestricted and allowing unlimited recovery is not cool.

I'd rather see a lessening of restrictions. How about 10 per 10 minutes? Or 1/30? Or 10 at a time every 5?
well, 1/60 sec is 10 per 10 minute, but yes, even that'd be better. I could see a system there with 10 per 5 or 10 minute working as if you eat 1 herb, you get a 5 or 10 min cooldown for that, and can have up to 10 such cooldowns running, so you can choose to run 1/min if you please...
gorboth wrote:Or, maybe, it ain't broke.
Or then again, maybe it is. Are there any statistics on player decline the first few months after the change?
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Windemere
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Re: Herbs

Post by Windemere » 13 Dec 2014 21:46

Raumdor, not a matter of difficulty to find way around, I know my way around. Issue is the random popping of creatures makes it annoying to herb there. Weight is an issue for those of us who have low strength and you are assuming what the weight will be.

I think it works fine now. My entire role is based on herb consumption. I don't find a need to have things changed. I feel that this may be something you personally are interested in. I don't know that there are many others that would want the same things as you.

I'm just telling you that I, personally, don't mind how things are and don't see need for a change.

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