Herbs

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Icarus
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Re: Herbs

Post by Icarus » 13 Dec 2014 22:06

Windemere wrote:Raumdor, not a matter of difficulty to find way around, I know my way around. Issue is the random popping of creatures makes it annoying to herb there. Weight is an issue for those of us who have low strength and you are assuming what the weight will be.

I think it works fine now. My entire role is based on herb consumption. I don't find a need to have things changed. I feel that this may be something you personally are interested in. I don't know that there are many others that would want the same things as you.

I'm just telling you that I, personally, don't mind how things are and don't see need for a change.

As a small character, I too have limited strenght.

Raumdor and it's creature popping makes it a more of a challenge, but that is also part of the game. As a Ranger, my role is also vastly based on herb consumption, but when the herb system now result in members of guilds where magic should be their main way of dealing damage in greater and greater degree rely on obtaining superior weapons and armours to grind using melee, a change is needed. A change where herbs will be less effective for those with lower herbalism, as well as limiting the availability of herbalism in non-magic guilds and even in gardeners, even increasing some of the skill requirements to obtain some of the herbs. For instance is whitehorn, which are very potent herb, mainly used by non-magic classes who have mostly no chance of identifying the herb themselves, the most potent healing herb available. In other cases do the Rangers, who is the oldest herb-addicted guild in existance, find that Gardeners and racial guild offer basically equal skills in finding the herbs needed. The change in herbs wasn't made to punish those guilds that are addicted to herbs, but to limit, as Gorboth wrote, the non-magical players the chance to basically instant heal. with my 1700+ herbs, I just never get to use up consumption herbs, they keep increasing as I do herb them, unless they are for a special ability (kuko comes to mind) whilst herbs spent for spells are racing out at increased speeds.

My point is that the change, set to limit the usage of herbs for predominately fighter classes is hurting magic users, and in the long run hurting the game, as, unless the magic guilds are vastly overpowered compared to the melee guilds, they lose a lot of interest to the public. Both SCoP and Morgul Mages can be claimed to have this, as these guilds can fight back much larger foes than any equal and in many cases larger player can.
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Windemere
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Re: Herbs

Post by Windemere » 13 Dec 2014 23:03

Wait a second,

Am I misunderstanding? I think I am. Did you say Rangers main way of dealing damage should be Magic and they rely more and more on equipment?

I'm not sure I understand. The guilds who deal damage predominately with magic are SCoP, Mages and PoT.

I'm a member of the SCoP and I am telling you that while it would be nice to be able to restore my mana to full eating as many herbs as I like, it's not necessary and actually keeps magic users in Balance. I am fine with the current herb system.

Icarus
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Re: Herbs

Post by Icarus » 13 Dec 2014 23:32

Windemere wrote:Wait a second,

Am I misunderstanding? I think I am. Did you say Rangers main way of dealing damage should be Magic and they rely more and more on equipment?

I'm not sure I understand. The guilds who deal damage predominately with magic are SCoP, Mages and PoT.

I'm a member of the SCoP and I am telling you that while it would be nice to be able to restore my mana to full eating as many herbs as I like, it's not necessary and actually keeps magic users in Balance. I am fine with the current herb system.
No, rangers have, however, skills set so low that magic is a great part of our way to do combat, in the sense of using heals. Rangers are also mainly invited into grinding crews due to heals, but that has been reduced a lot by the fact that we have harder restrictions on who we can team with than the SCoP.

And to claim that Mages are in balance with anything in the game is a joke, right? SCoP titans can take down certain mobs a hero won't even dare attack unless having focused lot on discipline, and there are few mobs a SCoP can't take down faster and easier than an equally sized fighter class player. Rangers can also take down such mobs, but use longer time, due to a LOT less damage, and ending up losing a LOT of mana due to the heals required during such fights.

The only thing we had, that would make us even vaguely even to other guilds were being invited as healers (where now SCoP are prefered) and the usage of herbs to be able to keep our mana at a level where healing ourselves in lenghty combat, which has been reduced a lot, since herbs now are restricted.

IF it means that after restricting herbs to magic dominant guilds and releasing the usage to a level closer to the levels of the past means that SCoP, Mages and PoT become too OP, then that is a balance issue where they are already obviously OP'd.
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Windemere
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Re: Herbs

Post by Windemere » 14 Dec 2014 01:26

You're getting into another debate,

One we have had elsewhere. You cannot compare SCoP to fighter guilds. Rangers are due for a recode, no one will deny that, and where they are right now may not be what works for the realms as it stands. After recode they will likely be better suited, but to base things on comparison with other guilds to make a global change is silly.

Second, while Titan SCoP might be able to take down something Hero of other guild won't dare is a poor comparison. While one maybe able to, it will cost a lot of mana, and thus that SCoP will need quite a bit of time to recover before being able to do so again. It's not like they are walking around blowing mobs away with impunity.

Bringing up Mages is a dead horse. Any guild reliant on Mana will run into down time. It's confirmed, can't be denied. Fighters go til weapons break. Bad comparison to make.

You are arguing for a global change. One that will mostly affect spell casters. I am telling you, as a spell caster, I do not want the change.

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gorboth
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Re: Herbs

Post by gorboth » 14 Dec 2014 02:13

Yeah ... Icarus, I think this is pretty much something you personally want, but that is not in the best interests of the game.

G.
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Icarus
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Re: Herbs

Post by Icarus » 14 Dec 2014 03:21

gorboth wrote:Yeah ... Icarus, I think this is pretty much something you personally want, but that is not in the best interests of the game.
Actually, removing herbalism from being a "every nitwit" skill and focusing it for those who actually should be knowledgeable about herbs (Elementals, SCoP, Mages, PoT, Rangers, Necro's) and in the same way limit the gain from herbs to those who do not have the ability to discern an attanar from any other blue berry could arguably be in the best interests of the game.

This wouldn't be unpresedented, as back when herbs were introduced, there were no racial guilds with layman level herbalism skills provided, no gardeners and no mass herbing by other than those who actually needed them (Kahedans, Rangers & Mystics). Even when herbs started saving (as long as someone held them through a reboot) there were no mass-use of the herbs by everyone. When herbalism became something that everyone could get, at a minimum tax, that's when it went southwards... Is THAT in the best interests of the game?
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Windemere
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Re: Herbs

Post by Windemere » 14 Dec 2014 04:05

What would be the reason for that?

To make people need to seek a guild who has herbalism skill to identify an herb? To limit the usefulness of herbs to all but those who can identify them (search by name vs just random search).

It seems that it would put an unnecessary hurdle in the realms for the usage of herbs. I bet it is still likely that those who use herbs often still are the ones who collect the utility herbs over just attanar, whitehorn, and suranie/athly. It would certainly make herbing more annoying for those who are not in those guilds.

I guess the question that should, in my opinion, always be asked when making suggestions is "What problem does it solve". If the answer is "none" or "one that impacts few" then no, it is not in the best interest of the realms. If the answer is "a huge one that affects everyone" then I suppose it would be.

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Re: Herbs

Post by Syrk » 14 Dec 2014 04:36

Icarus wrote: I don't know about you, Greneth, but a rising hero can still tank and take down a myth
You keep claiming that but failed to deliver.

Greneth

Re: Herbs

Post by Greneth » 14 Dec 2014 04:48

Since the herb change I know of four Hero and under who have successfully forced a Myth to retreat, two were due to bugs, one due to an item thought unobtainable and the last was a Legend who was an idiot and got a mouthful of Faerie Dust and dropped all his crap while chasing. I would love to see the logs of a single RH taking on a Myth and winning without the use of a bug in a saferoom. I can maybe see it with imbuements and the Legend/Myth not paying attention, but you would have to do more then just say it happens on a daily basis. Because I just dont see it nor hear about it and while I may not play as much I still talk to quite a few actives out of game.
As a small character, I too have limited strenght.
Well which is it are you a Myth killer or not?

And no magic wasn't made more potent with the introduction of guilds, magic in general was made more potent. There had to be a form of checks and balances with the herb change and potency was one of them to all forms, believe Petros has a note about it floating around here somewhere.

LoD is crap, not because of the exp but because of the fatigue. I can think of 5 other unpopulated runs to do which yield less exp per mob but more in the long run due to more of them and the clearing time.

Magic has a time and place to be used, the point of it is that when you do use it... no one else can compare. Ask any Scop if they run around throwing spells left and right, ask any Mage they will both tell you the same thing. That when they do, they wont be doing it for long during that session nor for the next week or so. They learn when its cost effective to use and they stay within their boundaries to avoid such situations.

Dont fix something that aint broken.

Rangers while they do suck in general actually have access to probably the best way to get exp up till champ, way quicker then any other guild could solo. Reading your posts I think you need to expand your knowledge and think for a bit on the skills you have access to and what ALL is available for you to use in game. If you need to heal so consistently that it is a problem then you need to either figure out your gear and items or move down to something less challenging. My Ranger hit Titan and I never once had any complaints about mana usage, hell I only used it when I got a nasty special or two and for groups. And I wasnt even RoI. I say wait for the recode coming in after 2025 ;-)

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Snowrose
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Re: Herbs

Post by Snowrose » 14 Dec 2014 05:18

my idea is reward those who enjoy preperation. not to revert things to "old ways" add something that might appeal to "service guilds" make more herb based objects such as potions(rangers/mages), ( or add bundles(gardeners), talsmins-artifacts(scop/EW) ))more worthwhile.

have an object made with an assortment of herb(s) (such as a potion) used at one time have the effect of 5 -500 herbs used alone, partly based on persons size/skills/guildstat/and how much was used to make it. these makable by the " herb addicted guilds" make these objects heavier, costly or difficult to make make them decay over time ( potions already do for rangers due to bug)

people who like the old ways can keep using normal herbs/potions rather than using costly, heavy, limited use items that may have a litteral "crash"after 5-10 minutes of not using them to simulate withdrawl ( bringing up addicted as a feature) similar to the crash newbies get after using hhome. this will give people that OMG im gonna die panic button that herbs used to be. long enough to escape and hide to ride out detox effects.

or for the prep experts it lets them take two hours to prep then run around for a limited time feeling like a diety clering out lod but then have an hour of downtime where they go back to herbing. where sure 4 hours of normal grinding may be more effective. but for some people riding off the highs and lows might be more fun.

or maybe add something else for herbiphiles like if they sell an herb that the herbalist doesnt have they get a bit of exp or an imbue, this will encourage people who do herb in odd places like raumdor to sell to herbalists they do not normally frequent,
gems as well..

in conclution its not just about making herbs more powerful its about makingpeople who enjoy herb gathering not feel like they should be out grinding orcs instead. if peoople feel obligated to do things they hate because the things they like are a waste of time. why bother leaving HQ.
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