Herbs

[Icarus]

From a wizard point of view there are a number of problems with herbs.

- Herbalism skill means very little, you get little additional benefit from being able to identify a herb
- Herb growth is problematic, the 'rarity' of herbs is not enforced in any way. This leads to the more abundant less powerful herbs never being used.
- Some herbs 'cheat' by providing long duration effects making other herbs less valuable.

Plenty to do for whoever wants to fix herbs!

Ok, here's a suggestion (Windemere, Greneth your objections are expected, so I can shoot them down):

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 - Herbalism skill limited to 15 skillevels in all adventurer guilds.
 - Herbalism skill limited to adventurer guild level in all racial guilds
 - Herbalism skill limited to 30 in Gardener craftsman branch.
 - Herbalism skill limited to 50 in Gardener layman branch.
 - Herbalism skill limited to 50 in;
    - Elemental Worshippers of Calia
    - Heralds of the Valar
    - Academy of Elemental Arts
    - Necromancers Of Vile Darkness
 - Herbalism skill for occupational guilds reliant on herbs limited to 100:
    - Morgul Mages
    - Rangers of the Westlands
    - Spirit Circle of Psuchae
    - Priests of Takhisis

Note, that "limited to" doesn't mean "this skill" it means "this is the HIGHEST skill they should be able to get".

Now, having made such a change like this, the effects of herbs can be made different as well.

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GIVEN_HERB_EFFECT / 100 * player(skill_herbalism) = ACTUAL_EFFECT

In this, someone eating a herb which actual effect is 100, having a skill of 15 gets the effect 15.

With such a change, one can then allow for the consumption of 20 herbs/5 minutes. The result of this would look like this:

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Basis for the examples: The herb X. Previously one could eat 5 of the herb X in five minutes. Change, now one can eat 20 in 5 minutes. What would then the effect be, compared, if there is a skill-based value set on the effects of X. Original effect we know would be 5X in 5 min.
 - Player A, all fighter, skill: confident amateur (15).
       Effect of 20 herbs after change would be: 3X -> down two.
 - Player B, all fighter, gardener, skill: superior layman (30).
       Effect of 20 herbs after change would be: 6X -> up one.
 - Player C, layman gardener, herald, necro, EW or academic, skill: superior journeyman (50).
       Effect of 20 herbs after change would be: 10X -> up five (doubled).
 - Player D, occupational magic using guild, limited, skill: confident veteran (75).
       Effect of 20 herbs after change would be: 15X -> up ten (tripled).
 - Player D, occupational magic using guild, unlimited, skill: superior guru (100).
       Effect of 20 herbs after change would be: 20X -> up fifteen (quadrupled).

This would, yes, allow for some "misuses". A mercenary can adapt herbalism to a high level, but wil the effect of te herbs outway the lack in other skills on cost?

Also, I can hear the cries in the background now "But what about us, we got herbalism skill now" coming from various places, like the monestary of the Dragon Order, and "why are not we up there, we use mana!!" from the Minstrels.

Answers are:
- Dragon Order, why do you have herbalism? Any real reason other than "it seemed like a good idea at the time" ?
- Minstrels, you are singers, not magic users, that you have some small magic songs that give effects doesn't really amount to being knowledgeable of herbs. Don't like it? Write a sad balad about it.

[Windemere]

Interesting idea Icarus,

I guess I'm going to ask the same question I asked earlier though. What problem does this solve? This is a global change that will have impacts on everyone.

With all of the things that exist within Genesis that need to be dealt with I wonder why there would be any desire to change something that seems to be working fairly well because it would benefit a few groups of people.

As a Magic User in a guild where my Layman and Occupational slots are taken, Herbs work fine for me. I don't need them to change. The change would possibly benefit me but I do not find myself needing them to change.

I'll also answer for the Dragon Order, they have herbalism because they are monks who tend gardens and grow herbs. They are a life based guild who sees value in growth and renewal. It makes really good sense for them to have great herbalism. Better than most I would say.

Again, I'll finish with the question I started with. What problem does this solve?

[Icarus]

Interesting idea Icarus,

I guess I'm going to ask the same question I asked earlier though. What problem does this solve? This is a global change that will have impacts on everyone.

For most, this "impact" will have no real effect, but for those who are actually forced to use herbs as part of their guilds setup, to use mana a great deal, this will get them closer to the old system. At least if they are willing to put in the time. Also, it will alter the usage of herbs in general. Today there are players who run around eating a herb ever 60 second the whole time they are logged in. Others are gobbling down herbs they, in theory, wouldn't be able to tell apart from sheep dung dipped in white paint as soon as they enter combat (which of course makes it even easier to spot such differences before you get your mouth full of shit)...

With all of the things that exist within Genesis that need to be dealt with I wonder why there would be any desire to change something that seems to be working fairly well because it would benefit a few groups of people.

I must agree, it will benefit a few groups of people, finally something we can agree upon. Now, did you take into account that these "few groups" include those guilds most hampered by the change? Every non-magic user who used to gobble down herbs in their thousands have been hampered sure, but that was also the point. This was a quick-fix, not planned as the permanent one, I can't imagine it was, but without the manpower to actually do a proper fix, and perhaps not even a plan of how it should look, as there were so many other things that had priority, then actually putting fourth a suggestion that would WORK. I know this won't be fixed today, and that there are many things that will need to have a higher priority than this, but I can't see how you can argue "working faily well" without kicking yourself in the bum or talking from a non-magic user perspective, scared shitless of losing "even more" of the herb usage already lost.

As a Magic User in a guild where my Layman and Occupational slots are taken, Herbs work fine for me. I don't need them to change. The change would possibly benefit me but I do not find myself needing them to change.

YOU might not feel the need for them to change Windemere, but are you then talking only as your magic user, and do you believe you speak for the whole SCoP? I sincerely doubt the last part at least.

I'll also answer for the Dragon Order, they have herbalism because they are monks who tend gardens and grow herbs. They are a life based guild who sees value in growth and renewal. It makes really good sense for them to have great herbalism. Better than most I would say.

Funny thing there, I remember Kaheda, I remember the garden and the feud with the undead. Today there are no such feud, the Dragon Order do not cultivate plants in the way that Kahedans once did and seeing the value of life is not the same as knowling the benefits that specific plants can give as magical components or instantly understanding the magical healing properties of rare herbs from far away lands. And it's never so bad they can't team with a mage or a necromancer, at least.

Again, I'll finish with the question I started with. What problem does this solve?

Again, Windemere, I'll answer; It will solve the fact that the current system is punishing everyone because non-magic groups should not have such power. Result is, magic groups can't work on preparation as we did. The fact that you gather herbs in Raumdor which "is a bother" and would hate to see them go, well, if they're components, there is no change in that, but when you're out of mana, and if the SCoP gives a superior herbalism skill, then you're gaining quite well, however, it seems to me your arguments are tipping towards how a character with no discernable magic skills would feel about this. Or perhaps my assumption that SCoP actually have herbalism is wrong... What do I know, if it is, you'd be really "up shit creek" wouldn't you?

[Draugor]

So the BDA should have herbalism aswell?

Dragons cost mana to summon and use, also skunk berries are used by.... well almost everyone

[Windemere]

I just want to be clear. From what I am reading here the goal seems to be that you want to solve the problem of Magic users running out of mana and being required to have down time to regain said mana. Your solution is to allow magic users to eat a bunch of herbs, regain mana, and keep going. That's the summary version of course, it wouldn't be unlimited herbs.

I was under the impression that a lot of the power Magic Guilds got was based on the concept that they can't run and gun. They must wait for their mana to return after a large battle which to some extent balances them. And Mages are going to benefit from this as well making their ability to cast their spells more unlimited.

It sounds to me what this change would do is empower Magic guilds even more so and take power away from fighter guilds who "should not have herbalism". One of the bigs things when there was a hunt on Mages was the need for resistance in the new magic system. Sure, lots of armours have that, but herbs provide it in spades. So, Magic users can buff themselves even better than those who actually need it to fight the magic users? Seems a bit backwards.

I don't think you are solving any problem that needs solving. Maybe I don't speak for all SCoP, but I am one of the smaller ones with a smaller Mana pool. Wouldn't I be the one most impacted by your "problem"? I can go shorter time before needing to stop and refresh.

[Manglor]

I was under the impression that a lot of the power Magic Guilds got was based on the concept that they can't run and gun. They must wait for their mana to return after a large battle which to some extent balances them. And Mages are going to benefit from this as well making their ability to cast their spells more unlimited.

You are correct. This was seen in the Morgul Mage recode, and was a shock to a lot of guildmembers [I am not whining, we had it better than anyone pre-recode], which has had a direct correlation to the lack of activity. Yes, MM (and other spellcasters) can blow up a large target, but will be low on mana afterwards. Toby Keith said it best, regarding the current caster philosophy "I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was."

[Icarus]

So the BDA should have herbalism aswell?

Dragons cost mana to summon and use, also skunk berries are used by.... well almost everyone

No. BDA aren't a caster guild. All guilds use mana in a small fashion, doesn't make them casters, and if anyone would stand out and argue that skunk berries aren't overpowered, I'd be amused.

I just want to be clear. From what I am reading here the goal seems to be that you want to solve the problem of Magic users running out of mana and being required to have down time to regain said mana. Your solution is to allow magic users to eat a bunch of herbs, regain mana, and keep going. That's the summary version of course, it wouldn't be unlimited herbs.

I was under the impression that a lot of the power Magic Guilds got was based on the concept that they can't run and gun. They must wait for their mana to return after a large battle which to some extent balances them. And Mages are going to benefit from this as well making their ability to cast their spells more unlimited.

It sounds to me what this change would do is empower Magic guilds even more so and take power away from fighter guilds who "should not have herbalism". One of the bigs things when there was a hunt on Mages was the need for resistance in the new magic system. Sure, lots of armours have that, but herbs provide it in spades. So, Magic users can buff themselves even better than those who actually need it to fight the magic users? Seems a bit backwards.

I don't think you are solving any problem that needs solving. Maybe I don't speak for all SCoP, but I am one of the smaller ones with a smaller Mana pool. Wouldn't I be the one most impacted by your "problem"? I can go shorter time before needing to stop and refresh.

A) I did set limitation, up to a max of 4 times faster than current status.

B) I never said that herbs should stay as powerful as they are now, most high powered herbs have been created due to the change in herb-usage.

C) As a SCoP you have a better heal than Rangers, you do more damage than Rangers, and you have often a shorter downtime than Rangers. Yes, we need a recode, I still doubt we'll ever be the "first" in either of these, which means we'll be underpowered in all functions still. Stealth is worthless today, and we have basically no benefit from it except for moving about somewhat undetected.

I was under the impression that a lot of the power Magic Guilds got was based on the concept that they can't run and gun. They must wait for their mana to return after a large battle which to some extent balances them. And Mages are going to benefit from this as well making their ability to cast their spells more unlimited.

You are correct. This was seen in the Morgul Mage recode, and was a shock to a lot of guildmembers [I am not whining, we had it better than anyone pre-recode], which has had a direct correlation to the lack of activity. Yes, MM (and other spellcasters) can blow up a large target, but will be low on mana afterwards. Toby Keith said it best, regarding the current caster philosophy "I ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was."

You might have seen this as a shock, Manglor, you may even say a "lot of guildmembers did". The loss in power granted by grinding using stat-cloud is obvious, but considering that most, if not all mages who were active prior to the recode have used the stat-cloud grinding to a level where most are myths and even big myths at that, they have nothing to whine about. They are still far more powerful than any other guild on the Donut and can only be rivaled by SCoP to a certain degree, and SCoP seems still to be on the path to being replaced...

[Windemere]

Ok,

I think I'm totally clear now. Based on your last post, this is a change that will specifically benefit Rangers. Got it. Took a while to get there though.

[Manglor]

You might have seen this as a shock, Manglor, you may even say a "lot of guildmembers did". The loss in power granted by grinding using stat-cloud is obvious, but considering that most, if not all mages who were active prior to the recode have used the stat-cloud grinding to a level where most are myths and even big myths at that, they have nothing to whine about. They are still far more powerful than any other guild on the Donut and can only be rivaled by SCoP to a certain degree, and SCoP seems still to be on the path to being replaced...

I think you misread my post. I'm referring to the mana-regen model that the 'recoded' spellcasters guilds are based on. As you [should] know, we used to be able to drain a considerable amount of mana from an enemy, which we lost in the recode. This would grant us near-infinite uptime. With the changes, things are much more 'balanced' but the change was quite severe nonetheless. Not a whine post, just saying that the new mages have to basically melee while they regen mana. Which means they're a fighter guild with incredible limited-use burst. Which is lame.

(edited to quote correct person lol)

[Icarus]

Ok,

I think I'm totally clear now. Based on your last post, this is a change that will specifically benefit Rangers. Got it. Took a while to get there though.

And how will it NOT benefit SCoP exactly?

Rangers main use of herbs are from spells, not consumption.

I think you misread my post. I'm referring to the mana-regen model that the 'recoded' spellcasters guilds are based on. As you [should] know, we used to be able to drain a considerable amount of mana from an enemy, which we lost in the recode.

I should know about mage abilities? Ooook, well, I didn't. A long time before you lost the ability to drain mana from your enemies, there was a Ranger who could, thanks to a specific weapon, run arond with basically infinite mana. It too was removed, long before the Mages got recoded.

The change here suggested would actually make it possible for caster guilds to spend time preparing, while non-casters would not be able to just buy heaps and heaps of herbs to obtain "immortality" as before. It also limits the herb use, although not as much as now, resulting in casters being able to return to combat at a higher pace. For mana regen we drink water and if very lucky, we have one of the three thorns, this goes for SCoP as well, however for health regen alcohol does a much better trick than water, if you don't need mana, you can use the leaf-green iun stone, and in this, anyone have higher chances of gaining health faster than a caster can gain mana. And this is after you've looked at the fact that casters ALSO need the health gain, where they in several cases can't or won't drink alcohol due to roleplay or guild rules.

Not a whine post, just saying that the new mages have to basically melee while they regen mana. Which means they're a fighter guild with incredible limited-use burst. Which is lame.

Isn't this just basically saying that "I'd like that change, since that means mages could at least get closer to being mages again" ?