Botting

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Cherek
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Re: Botting

Post by Cherek » 14 Feb 2015 19:14

Alisa wrote:
Cherek wrote:
Alisa wrote: And really, a large team of high level characters with at least an active leader (which they had) in the Utterdark will hardly be in danger if they lack one member. Or two. There's barely a place in Genesis that poses a real danger for a SOLO myth who's at his/her computer. But if that is your major concern, perhaps it's best to team with people who watch their screens, or, don't go into dangerous areas when one or more people in the team is AFK?
What i was trying to convey was the feeling the team leader and the rest of the team gets when a member is suddenly missing. They start running in circles, looking for that player, as that player certainly is in trouble. The only real reason why he wouldn't follow is simple fatigue, and that will kill a myth too.
That does create alot of frustration, when you find out he is just away chatting with a wizard about a too long break.

As you said yourself, nobody is punished and you are trying to find the way thats best for the majority.
Its teeming with hurt feelings here, and i did cause some of that for which i am truly sorry.


To resume to the actual discussion, maybe another thread should be made, or this should be purged

My feelings in this, and why i thought the rules should be adapted is still because of family. When called, i go. This game is still build so a daughter calling can set me back a month or more. Either from dying or from failing the bot check. That is not going to happen many times before i stop playing, and it will affect others too....

Chanelle wrote "either you play or you don't". Black or white. I'm grey here, because i like to play but i wil not put it first.
Ok, now I understand what you meant. I suppose I could have told the team leader when I snatched the one who failed the test, and that point informing the team leader would not mess up the test anyway. So ok, I get it. Valid point.

Regardless of how hard we decide to enforce these rules I think if you get called away a few times from the computer I am not gonna come hunting you for it, or punish you. It's highly unlikely you'll ever be tested if you're generally an active player who sometimes happen to leave the computer for various RL issues. And if it happens that rarely it's very unlikely you'd be tested at the exact time you leave. And even if you did get caught you'd still be a first time offender and I'd probably be pretty understanding. Players who are generally active should never have something to fear.

It's a complicated matter though, which is why I started the thread, and why I checked on people who I think might script unattended in order to confirm if they are, and then have chat with them. For some, like Chanele it's very black and white, for others its much more grey. Anyway, to try to nudge this thread in the right direction again:

As I see it there are two ways to deal with this, and those are the two options we have discussed upstairs too:

1.
Fiercely hunt botters. See it very black and white. This WILL lead to both anger, and people perhaps quitting the game, at least temporarily, som for good perhaps. But those who remain will most likely be at their screens when playing. And after a while it will start to be normal to LD when you need a break, normal not to drag around inactive players. It will to normal to play Genesis when you play Genesis. And when you make dinner you make dinner, when you work, you work, etc. Not the combination we have today. People would most likely adjust to only doing other things on the side where they still can also look at their screen. And those who truly bot will of course have been deleted or stopped doing it altogether very quickly. Yes, we may lose a few players, and it will cause anger for awhile, but in the end, those who remain will probably have adopted another style of play that is more active. Which in turn would benefit both new players, and old, as it should lead to more interaction as there are much fewer semi-active "drones" in the game, and no bots at all.

2.
More or less let people play their semi-idle style they do today, only bother about checking those who REALLY bot, for hours and hours, completely unattended. Work instead to promote active play by code, so that activity is rewarded and botting is not. This sounds good in theory but will also require a lot of wizard work, and as you know we dont have too many wizards, so it could take a while. Also, some will still chose to be half-idle bots despite anything we code to try to remote active play. This options will most likely not have the same, and immediate, impact on botting as option 1 either. On the other hand, people will be able to enjoy the game as they always have, even if thats means many are semi-active, or less. And we probably do not risk losing many players, if any. Except those we may lose _because_ of the bots and drones of course.:)

So yeah... that's basically the options I see. Number 3 would be to let botting be completely free, but I am not even gonna list that. I dont want it, and I doubt many players want it to be completely free either.

Anyone see another option, feel free to share.

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Amorana
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Re: Botting

Post by Amorana » 14 Feb 2015 19:27

Cherek wrote: So yeah... that's basically the options I see. Number 3 would be to let botting be completely free, but I am not even gonna list that. I dont want it, and I doubt many players want it to be completely free either.

Anyone see another option, feel free to share.
Option 4:

We stop trying to dictate the way people play. We let people play the game in the way they enjoy, and stop feeling that we have a right to tell them how to enjoy it. There are only two situations when someone's script interrupts another person's game play:

1) The script does not take into account whether someone is already fighting in the room (as Kas describes) and they kill/loot steal. This is an easy problem to fix in your script, and if you don't, you should be punished for not taking care of it.

2) They accidentally attack players because of poorly designed scripts. If they do this and proceed to kill someone (because presumably they are AFK), then they should be punished.

All this other nonsense about people being bots and being bad guild council, etc, is a joke. The idea that people run through Sparkle and ignore newbies because of scripting is a joke.

1) The ones being complained about botting and being on councils in this thread have sent more mails than my own guild council as of late. I'd rather have them awake and attending to guild matters than asleep and not.

2) The ones being complained about botting and tested (based on Alisa's reactions) move out of the room when someone else is fighting there. I've seen it happen.

3) The ones being complained about botting are active while pvping, discuss it with the team via whispers when attacks occur, and are constantly talking to the team about guild matters, etc.

4) I've frequently stopped with this team in Sparkle, signed books for newbies, had discussions with them. We've even brought newbies along for growth. That's more than I see a lot of non-scripters do.

I know this because I've actually been in a team with them. As has Alisa. Most of you have not.

It is a complete and utter joke to me that this game has gotten to the point where others feel they have any right to tell another how to play it. For everyone saying it's just a game - take your own advice. You are not a dictator.

Keep this up and you will lose players. It won't be due to botting. It'll be due to the attitude of telling people how to play.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Draugor
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Re: Botting

Post by Draugor » 14 Feb 2015 19:53

Amorana, its just to remove ONE way of playing, or rather they are trying to make people actually play.

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Amorana
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Re: Botting

Post by Amorana » 14 Feb 2015 19:56

Draugor wrote:Amorana, its just to remove ONE way of playing, or rather they are trying to make people actually play.
Draugor - You, and everyone else, have yet to prove that they are NOT playing.

As I point out above in the 4 points I list - they are actively playing the game. It may just be that the way they play doesn't fit your narrow definition. Maybe the true heart of all of this is the jealousy over size, titles, rankings.

In my opinion, the whole game would be better off if Champion was the maximum level again and mortal rankings were removed. People would pvp more, because who knows how big someone is? And all these witch hunt threads over which guild was too over powered, what players were scripting too much would stop. Why? You'd have no way to say "that player is huge!" You'd be left wondering "are they really that big? or are they just better than me?"

Hate to break it to most of you - the answer is probably the second.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Drip
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Re: Botting

Post by Drip » 14 Feb 2015 20:06

Random suggestion: for those people who need to afk for a bit, like a washroom break or something important, getting killed or labeled as a bot is unfair.
So maybe creating some sort of a "stasis spell" that lets you afk for up to ten minutes at the cost of coins or items is possible?
(if you don't understand what I've written, assume I have bad wording)

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Alisa
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Re: Botting

Post by Alisa » 14 Feb 2015 20:14

Cherek, i vote number 2 :-)

Or the suggestions with AFK flags i mentioned earlier :-)

I am a powerhungry violent roleplayer. I am not into roleplaying a peacekeeper or something, and the problem with option 1 is that killing stuff.... well, i don't enjoy it in the moment, but i enjoy the effects of it over time. Yes, i love that i made it to legend. I was stuck at rising/hero last i stopped and that annoyed me.

Apparently my quest base was better than i thought, and i just needed to kill some critters! To bad my other char is stuck with much worse brute after solving the same quests, but that is timing issues.

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Alisa
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Re: Botting

Post by Alisa » 14 Feb 2015 20:33

Drip wrote:Random suggestion: for those people who need to afk for a bit, like a washroom break or something important, getting killed or labeled as a bot is unfair.
So maybe creating some sort of a "stasis spell" that lets you afk for up to ten minutes at the cost of coins or items is possible?
It sounds like a very good idea, but in effect you already have it (linkdead) where you have to be out of combat for some time (i think 1½ minute) before you go into the "stasis"

The reasons i know behind making it that way, was abuse of loosing link to avoid dying to a mob (eg, friends had time to arrive and kill it) avoid death to pvp (poof, gone)

Problem arises when you are doing a 5 man team, well of old farts... I got a kidney stone at the moment, so a small break takes me 10 minutes. Then the next guy gotta go, then the next. then someones wife calls...

So, if the team should stop every time, we would stand still like 90% of the time. The way we are going now, the rest of us continue the game(killing mobs, yay!) and chitchat/RP...well mostly chitchat.

The other way, if we were standing stil most of the time waiting when someone just had to go 2 minutes, which then turned out to be 20 because he did not buy the right brand of milk that was excatly told so by his wife, and he should have known it changed last tuesday------- Or stuff like that.

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Cherek
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Re: Botting

Post by Cherek » 14 Feb 2015 20:35

Amorana: Rules against botting have always existed as far as I know, and has always been enforced? At least for the last decade. I don't see why this causes such an outrage right now? The rules are like they always have been, and people have, and are, caught and punished for it now and then.

Nothing is new at all. Except perhaps I actually brought it up this time. Or perhaps because I tested a player who has not been tested that much before? I dont know what's suddenly causes so much anger about the issue, since we have never allowed botting, and I dont see we ever will. I do not see that as we are trying to be dictators and tell people how to play though. All games have a set of rules. I have played this game for over 15 years, the majority of the time as a player, and I can say I have never thought we have rules that somehow have confined the way I play, or that feel unreasonable. Clearly you feel differently though.

I cant remember seeing a thread where people complain about our botting rules before though, it's definitely not a common topic. Have you always felt this way?

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Amorana
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Re: Botting

Post by Amorana » 14 Feb 2015 20:41

Cherek wrote:Amorana: Rules against botting have always existed as far as I know, and has always been enforced? At least for the last decade. I don't see why this causes such an outrage right now? The rules are like they always have been, and people have, and are, caught and punished for it now and then.
Enforced? Sure, when people are doing it hours on end and completely inattentive the whole time. Dragging someone upstairs because "people complained"? Seems like giving into a lot of whiners to me.

And sure, I have always felt this way. I repeat, there are only two instances where scripting interrupts someone's game play. Tell me, how have the people recently checked impacted anyone's game play in this way? Or provide me some other example in which scripting causes harm to other players?

And please - don't bother with straw man arguments about councils and newbies in Sparkle. They can't be proven, and they detract from the point at hand (and often times, the same arguments can be made about people who are just aloof and/or inactive.)
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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Kas
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Re: Botting

Post by Kas » 14 Feb 2015 20:43

I think the problem arises when the entire team is totally absent for a substantial amount of time.

In my cases, either they are entirely absent, or they indeed are provocative by intent. From the perspective of my character, such teams outright steal from me. Paradoxally, if or when they wake up dead, they don't understand why.

How can a sentient player not understand the reason for an reaction when it's clearly apparent that he/she is the aggressor despite several warnings?

Write better scripts or end up dead. :D
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