Botting

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Ethuscuel
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Re: Botting

Post by Ethuscuel » 14 Feb 2015 23:57

EDIT: "If the answer to everything is "disconnect", then we need to allow people to do that very quickly. Whatever the PVP ramifications are." -Amorana

Agreed.

I'm certainly no wizard, but it seems like there should be a difference between the flag for being recently engaged with 'bits' vs players. If you're engaged in a PvP fight, the time restraints should stand. If you're engaged in a fight with 'bits', I think the 3-4 minute post-fight disconnect lockout should be looked at. Seems like a remnant from ages past, but I could be wrong...and I don't know the ramifications regarding the work involved in changing it.

I would vote to leave the PvP disconnect lockout and change the 'non-sentient' disconnect lockout. 15 seconds of no combat seems reasonable. If someone is hunting you and they catch you engaged with a monster, if they can't get you engaged in 15 seconds...they don't deserve it anyway.

Icarus
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Re: Botting

Post by Icarus » 15 Feb 2015 00:13

Actually, the "delay" in linkdeath is based on combat. You are not being automatically transfered to the statues room when disconnecting very rapidly after battle or in battle. This is to prevent the use of LD to avoid linkdeath. Also why they limited the use of zodiac closely after and in battle and quit in combat. If you've not been in combat the last 5 min, a LD isn't really a problem, but then again, I don't really see a problem with running to a saferoom and LD there, there are saferooms most everywhere.
Flee you fools!

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Cherek
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Re: Botting

Post by Cherek » 15 Feb 2015 00:59

OgreToyBoy wrote: Hope to get test soon so I know if I'm able to see the numbers or wingdings needed to pass it.
Is there I reason I would need to run the test on you?:) I really have no plan to start bot testing half the game for no particular reason. Unless we somehow decide that should be the right course of action... But unless that happens, dont worry about it. You will KNOW. I mean really know. There is absolutely no way it can by missed or failed if you're watching you're screen at least a little. It spams your entire screen every 30 seconds or so in all caps until you respond. I think it's extremely hard to miss.:)

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OgreToyBoy
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Re: Botting

Post by OgreToyBoy » 15 Feb 2015 01:05

Cherek wrote:
OgreToyBoy wrote: Hope to get test soon so I know if I'm able to see the numbers or wingdings needed to pass it.
Is there I reason I would need to run the test on you?:) I really have no plan to start bot testing half the game for no particular reason. Unless we somehow decide that should be the right course of action... But unless that happens, dont worry about it. You will KNOW. I mean really know. There is absolutely no way it can by missed or failed if you're watching you're screen at least a little. It spams your entire screen every 30 second or so in alla caps until you respond. I think it's extremely hard to miss.:)
Right on Cherek, I look forward to it. If someone would just report me ho ho ho.

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Cherek
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Re: Botting

Post by Cherek » 15 Feb 2015 01:10

Ethuscuel wrote: | | ||_||_||_ | ||_||_|| | <------By the way...what the hell is that, Cherek? That is madness.
| ||_||_| ||_| ||_||_|
What is the number displayed? Syntax: <answer number>
I have no idea what the above is, but in my client it's actually a clearly visible and readable number, and very hard to miss. But since I am new as AoP and since I've never been bot tested as a player, the bot test is new to me as well. I have just learned that apparently it doesn't look right on certain clients. I tried a new way to check for bots though which is very different from the current one (see my reply to OgreToyBoy two posts up). It's not as automatic, but its in my opinion both impossible to miss and impossible to fail if you're at least somewhat active. I also waited 15 min before deciding someone had failed it so... plenty of time for most RL issues that could arise. But I have only tested it three times, still considering what's the best way, and obviously, if I should test people at all, and how much, which is what the thread is about.

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Amorana
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Re: Botting

Post by Amorana » 15 Feb 2015 01:13

Icarus wrote:Actually, the "delay" in linkdeath is based on combat. You are not being automatically transfered to the statues room when disconnecting very rapidly after battle or in battle. This is to prevent the use of LD to avoid linkdeath. Also why they limited the use of zodiac closely after and in battle and quit in combat. If you've not been in combat the last 5 min, a LD isn't really a problem, but then again, I don't really see a problem with running to a saferoom and LD there, there are saferooms most everywhere.
Again. You don't always have to option to find a safe room. If I am in Moria in a team, for example, I don't have time to LD if, for example, I have a sick kid at the house, or dinner burning on the stove and 20 minutes of trying to clear smoke from smoke alarms ahead of me.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

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Mersereau
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Re: Botting

Post by Mersereau » 15 Feb 2015 01:59

Amorana wrote: If I am in Moria in a team, for example, I don't have time to LD if, for example, I have a sick kid at the house, or dinner burning on the stove and 20 minutes of trying to clear smoke from smoke alarms ahead of me.
Brb, cat on fire.
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Cherek
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Re: Botting

Post by Cherek » 15 Feb 2015 03:15

Amorana wrote: ...I repeat, there are only two instances where scripting interrupts someone's game play. Tell me, how have the people recently checked impacted anyone's game play in this way? Or provide me some other example in which scripting causes harm to other players?

And please - don't bother with straw man arguments about councils and newbies in Sparkle. They can't be proven, and they detract from the point at hand (and often times, the same arguments can be made about people who are just aloof and/or inactive.)
Okay, as promised I will attempt to reply on this. And considering the length of this post you understand why I couldn't write it before dinner..:)

As I see it it's very simple. These are the rules we have setup for the game, and as I see it they are there to make the game more fun and fair for everyone to enjoy. All games have a set of rules. I mean you're not allowed to set up a bot to play online poker for you. You could, but you'd be breaking the rules and if caught you'd be banned and all your money lost obviously. Why? Well your bot would cause an unfair advantage against the human players, as it could go on and on and on, playing the odds perfectly, and never tire. Or, when playing golf you can't use a ball that goes twice as far as everyone else's. And so on. All games have defined rules for the game. In most games the rules are there to make the game fun, and to make the game fair. Just as our rules.

To play Genesis one rule is that you are not allowed to leave your character running around on unattended on scripts. The first reason for this is obvious to me, and the same as with online poker, it provides massive experience/herbs/money without anyone actually is controlling the character. It doesn't tire, and if set up right, it doesn't make mistakes. If we let botting free, I could theoretically, if I am decently good at programming, turn on my script on monday and check back in friday to see how big I am. Then I play actively on weekends with my huge character that I grow during the weeks.

And why would this be bad? Perhaps it would be a fun game too? Yeah, it might be. But it brings me to the second reason I think botting should not be allowed. It's a personal one. It's simply not a game I would like to create content for or promote. And not a gam I would want to play either. Once I learn that all the story and quests and guilds and lore we have is just cosmetic, and the real way to play is to have someone send me a bot script and then turn it on and let it run... then I'd find myself another game. I simply go on my feeling here, and _I_ personally want to create a game full of life and social interaction, full of conflicts and drama, and full of real people talking to real people. In my world there is no place for bots, and therefore I think rules about botting is something we should have, and should enforce. The best way of course would be code a game that people would never even want to use a bot in. A game that promotes and rewards social and active play more. But even if we had more of that, I still think we will need a set of rules. And I think we would still need to have the rules about botting, because you can't code it away completely. The question for me is to define what is a bot and what is not.

I am under the impression most players and wizards do NOT want people to bot. And that's a reason good as any not to allow it. I think we should try to attract people who want to be social and active when playing the game. If we show them a world full of bots, then I do think it will be harmful in the long run. Do I have statistics for this? No. So you'll probably dismiss this argument. But since we don't have statistics, we need to, like any game designer would, go with the gut feeling about what you feel makes a good game and what does not. My gut tells me allowing bots will make a crappy game that will both suck to play and to create. For me it's not about that anyone could get hurt by someone botting, it's about creating a game that's as fun as possible, and that as many people as possible will enjoy playing.

My examples are obviously worst case scenario, with botting completely free. But the more loose rules we have the closer we get to the worst case scenario. And if we are not going to allow unlimited botting, we have to draw the line somewhere, which is what this thread is about. Do we set the rules like Chanele and a few others have suggested? If you dont watch your screen then you bot? Should we have a time limit for how long you can leave you screen? Can you run a script unattended for 15 min? 30 min? 1 hour? 2 hours? A day? A week? When do you become a bot? I mean we have to draw the line somewhere, or are we really gonna allow unlimited botting? Does anyone want that?

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Amorana
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Re: Botting

Post by Amorana » 15 Feb 2015 04:13

Cherek wrote: To play Genesis one rule is that you are not allowed to leave your character running around on unattended on scripts. The first reason for this is obvious to me, and the same as with online poker, it provides massive experience/herbs/money without anyone actually is controlling the character. It doesn't tire, and if set up right, it doesn't make mistakes. If we let botting free, I could theoretically, if I am decently good at programming, turn on my script on monday and check back in friday to see how big I am. Then I play actively on weekends with my huge character that I grow during the weeks.
I would argue you are comparing apples to oranges here. With online poker, there is money to be made. There is literally no monetary gain to Genesis. It's just how someone spends their time.

Beyond this comparison, I go back to my argument (which I touch on again later in this note) that levels above Champion are hurting the game. Mortal rankings are hurting the game.

Champion is a relatively attainable level (and this is being said my someone who after 17 years of playing just leveled his first Champion). If an easily attainable mortal level was kept as the max and everything else was fluff, why would it matter what you did with your huge character on the weekends? My character is also champion, and I have nothing but the game for me to figure out if you're any bigger than I am. What an exciting would that would be! Better yet, what an exciting world Genesis USED to be.

Genesis was about NEVER giving specifics to people for a long time. Guild tax. Exact character stats. Nothing.

Now everyone whines when the rankings page goes down? Good riddance, I say. Don't bring it back.
Cherek wrote: And why would this be bad? Perhaps it would be a fun game too? Yeah, it might be. But it brings me to the second reason I think botting should not be allowed. It's a personal one. It's simply not a game I would like to create content for or promote. And not a gam I would want to play either. Once I learn that all the story and quests and guilds and lore we have is just cosmetic, and the real way to play is to have someone send me a bot script and then turn it on and let it run... then I'd find myself another game. I simply go on my feeling here, and _I_ personally want to create a game full of life and social interaction, full of conflicts and drama, and full of real people talking to real people. In my world there is no place for bots, and therefore I think rules about botting is something we should have, and should enforce. The best way of course would be code a game that people would never even want to use a bot in. A game that promotes and rewards social and active play more. But even if we had more of that, I still think we will need a set of rules. And I think we would still need to have the rules about botting, because you can't code it away completely. The question for me is to define what is a bot and what is not.
I don't think anyone is arguing for "free range botting". I can tell you the only people who bot while they sleep or work or are completely away, scripting away all by themselves, with no one in their team active, are dumb ones. Sorry if this offends anyone, but it's true. However, if I am sitting at my computer, while working, while watching a video, and perhaps I get too distracted for awhile with the movie, or perhaps I get very busy at work... I don't see why this should be a punishable offense. It's not as if I'm walking away from my computer, staying logged in 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with my script just running away. I'm still at the computer. I just happened to get distracted for awhile. Yes, sometimes that can happen much longer than I'd like. But it's life. As someone else has said - we're not computer nerds sitting in our dorm rooms anymore (for the most part). We're real people, with real lives. In WoW, for example, I can simply stand in place... I might end up dying, but other than a corpse run, there is no punishment to it. I don't lose gear. I don't lose stats. Nothing happens. In this way, Genesis punishes you for having a real life. In combat and suddenly need to leave? Too bad. Can't link die. Oh and those trolls you are fighting block exits. Oh, and you can't use your gem while in combat. Sorry, tough luck. Take your lumps and die, or ignore whatever else is happening in your life... It's very clear that Genesis is not catered to the realistic fact that sometimes, you need to quickly step away from the game. If we don't want people "botting", that's the first thing that has to be fixed.
Cherek wrote: I am under the impression most players and wizards do NOT want people to bot. And that's a reason good as any not to allow it. I think we should try to attract people who want to be social and active when playing the game. If we show them a world full of bots, then I do think it will be harmful in the long run. Do I have statistics for this? No. So you'll probably dismiss this argument. But since we don't have statistic, we need to, like any game designer would, go with the gut feeling about what you feel makes a good game and what does not. My gut tells me allowing bots will make a crappy game that will both suck to play and to create. For me it's not about that anyone could get hurt by someone botting, it's about creating a game that's as fun as possible, and that as many people as possible will enjoy playing.
Just because it is your impression, doesn't make it true. Everyone is complaining about how there are "so many botters" out there. If there are so many "botters", then how can it be that none want to? And if we want a game where it is discouraged to "bot", then why have we created a maximum level in it that is pushed so far out of attainability that it is absolutely impossible that anyone who has attained it has not either a) scripted or b) been led by someone with a script? That isn't a fun game to play. You shouldn't need to invest 30 days of play time (as I've recently been told "Myth is attainable in") to reach the max level, and then have to level that much more over again just to make sure the first time someone decides to gank you while you're waiting for friends at Roundabout you don't lose the title that's impossibly impossible to reach. Further, there should be incentive to do other things once you hit Myth. Right now, you hit myth, and you basically have nothing to do BUT grind or RP. And half (or more) of the players in the game refuse to actually RP. Sorry, but when I am in Sparkle and attempting to RP with you and you're giving me the full recount on how you can count coins and tell that you are exactly 42 progress levels from your next level - you're not giving much of a reason to do much else than grind npcs in this game. You can't tell people to "find something else to do" when there's little in the way of game content or player interaction that actually encourages it. Even the newbies that we are talking about can't refrain from using the help line as a chat room, despite repeated warnings not to (and now they've even got the vets doing it.) I had to break my pin, because I can't put the darn thing on and actually hold a conversation with anyone in the same room as me. At that point, what's the point in having it?

Cherek wrote: Anyway, my examples are obviously worst case scenario, with botting completely free. But the more loose rules we have the closer we get to the worst case scenario.

But if we are not going to allow unlimited botting, we have to draw the line somewhere, which is what this thread is about. Do we set the rules like Chanele and a few others have suggested? If you dont watch your screen then you bot? Should we have a time limit for how long you can leave you screen? Can you run a script unattended for 15 min? 30 min? 1 hour? 2 hours? A day? A week? When do you become a bot? I mean we have to draw the line somewhere, or are we really gonna allow unlimited botting? Does anyone want that?
To counter your questions, if we are not going to allow "unlimited botting", then there needs to be a severe game overhaul. Players need to be able to exit combat swiftly (that means no more blocking NPCs). Players need to be able to LD as soon as they exit combat (that means no more prevention from LD within x minutes of combat). Players need to have a quick way of returning home without losing gear for when you know LD isn't going to be long enough (that means no more dusting gems.)

If we insist on limiting "botting", and you want suggestions, I'd go with the a suggestion posed by others, with some amendments.

If You Are Solo:

1) If you script more than one area (or the same area more than once) without responding to a bot test, then you face punishment.
2) If you kill someone with your poorly written script, then you face punishment.
3) If you steal someone's loot/kills, without responding to tell them to kindly f*** off (and thereby implying it's on purpose) and they report you with a log, you face punishment.

If You Are In A Team:

1) Your leader must be attentive.
2) If you play while being led, and you do not let your leader know of your need to be away, then you face punishment (believe me, a lot of leaders would report this. I know several who'd like to kill their own guildmates for doing this.)
3) If you play while being led and are away longer than an hour without checking in, you face punishment (again... a lot of leaders would report this, if it were an actual rule.)
4) Rules 2 and 3 above.

Rationale on the Above:

As a compromise, if we're limiting "botting" - When it comes to being solo - if you're running around on your own, you shouldn't be allowed to do multiple areas while not watching the screen. You are not being attentive enough to know what's going on when you go into the next area. You're not seeing what people you might pass in between.

If you are in a team, you should have a lead that is attentive, for the reasons outlined in the paragraph above. You should be required to let your leader know you are inattentive. You should keep being inattentive to short spurts (grabbing food, going to the bathroom, dealing with a small emergency that doesn't require LD). You shouldn't be stealing stuff from other people. At that point, it all goes onto the leader. It is their responsibility to make sure their team isn't f***ing up. If they are, then the leader will face repercussions. That's what they've agreed to by leading inactives.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Ethuscuel
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Re: Botting

Post by Ethuscuel » 15 Feb 2015 09:28

Cherek,

I don't want botting, not even limited botting. You heard it from me, if no one else.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. Everyone understands that there will come a time when an emergency happens. I listened to my 16 year old take a tumble down the stairs just a couple days ago, while I was playing. I left the computer unattended while I picked him up, dusted him off, and told him to rub some dirt on it. I was away for roughly 10 minutes and if you had caught me with a bot test, I'd be ok with it. I wasn't at the keyboard and rules are rules.

If you get caught, don't make excuses...just accept that you broke the rules and suck it up, buttercup.

In my opinion, if someone has 'emergencies' that -frequently- require them to walk away from their computer...they PROBABLY shouldn't play games that have rules against leaving the game unattended. Just sayin.

Times may change, but standards must remain.

TTFN,
Ethuscuel

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