Cherek wrote:
To play Genesis one rule is that you are not allowed to leave your character running around on unattended on scripts. The first reason for this is obvious to me, and the same as with online poker, it provides massive experience/herbs/money without anyone actually is controlling the character. It doesn't tire, and if set up right, it doesn't make mistakes. If we let botting free, I could theoretically, if I am decently good at programming, turn on my script on monday and check back in friday to see how big I am. Then I play actively on weekends with my huge character that I grow during the weeks.
I would argue you are comparing apples to oranges here. With online poker, there is money to be made. There is literally no monetary gain to Genesis. It's just how someone spends their time.
Beyond this comparison, I go back to my argument (which I touch on again later in this note) that levels above Champion are hurting the game. Mortal rankings are hurting the game.
Champion is a relatively attainable level (and this is being said my someone who after 17 years of playing just leveled his first Champion). If an easily attainable mortal level was kept as the max and everything else was fluff, why would it matter what you did with your huge character on the weekends? My character is also champion, and I have nothing but the game for me to figure out if you're any bigger than I am. What an exciting would that would be! Better yet, what an exciting world Genesis USED to be.
Genesis was about NEVER giving specifics to people for a long time. Guild tax. Exact character stats. Nothing.
Now everyone whines when the rankings page goes down? Good riddance, I say. Don't bring it back.
Cherek wrote:
And why would this be bad? Perhaps it would be a fun game too? Yeah, it might be. But it brings me to the second reason I think botting should not be allowed. It's a personal one. It's simply not a game I would like to create content for or promote. And not a gam I would want to play either. Once I learn that all the story and quests and guilds and lore we have is just cosmetic, and the real way to play is to have someone send me a bot script and then turn it on and let it run... then I'd find myself another game. I simply go on my feeling here, and _I_ personally want to create a game full of life and social interaction, full of conflicts and drama, and full of real people talking to real people. In my world there is no place for bots, and therefore I think rules about botting is something we should have, and should enforce. The best way of course would be code a game that people would never even want to use a bot in. A game that promotes and rewards social and active play more. But even if we had more of that, I still think we will need a set of rules. And I think we would still need to have the rules about botting, because you can't code it away completely. The question for me is to define what is a bot and what is not.
I don't think anyone is arguing for "free range botting". I can tell you the only people who bot while they sleep or work or are completely away, scripting away all by themselves, with no one in their team active, are dumb ones. Sorry if this offends anyone, but it's true. However, if I am sitting at my computer, while working, while watching a video, and perhaps I get too distracted for awhile with the movie, or perhaps I get very busy at work... I don't see why this should be a punishable offense. It's not as if I'm walking away from my computer, staying logged in 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with my script just running away. I'm still at the computer. I just happened to get distracted for awhile. Yes, sometimes that can happen much longer than I'd like. But it's life. As someone else has said - we're not computer nerds sitting in our dorm rooms anymore (for the most part). We're real people, with real lives. In WoW, for example, I can simply stand in place... I might end up dying, but other than a corpse run, there is no punishment to it. I don't lose gear. I don't lose stats. Nothing happens. In this way, Genesis punishes you for having a real life. In combat and suddenly need to leave? Too bad. Can't link die. Oh and those trolls you are fighting block exits. Oh, and you can't use your gem while in combat. Sorry, tough luck. Take your lumps and die, or ignore whatever else is happening in your life... It's very clear that Genesis is not catered to the realistic fact that sometimes, you need to quickly step away from the game. If we don't want people "botting", that's the first thing that has to be fixed.
Cherek wrote:
I am under the impression most players and wizards do NOT want people to bot. And that's a reason good as any not to allow it. I think we should try to attract people who want to be social and active when playing the game. If we show them a world full of bots, then I do think it will be harmful in the long run. Do I have statistics for this? No. So you'll probably dismiss this argument. But since we don't have statistic, we need to, like any game designer would, go with the gut feeling about what you feel makes a good game and what does not. My gut tells me allowing bots will make a crappy game that will both suck to play and to create. For me it's not about that anyone could get hurt by someone botting, it's about creating a game that's as fun as possible, and that as many people as possible will enjoy playing.
Just because it is your impression, doesn't make it true. Everyone is complaining about how there are "so many botters" out there. If there are so many "botters", then how can it be that none want to? And if we want a game where it is discouraged to "bot", then why have we created a maximum level in it that is pushed so far out of attainability that it is absolutely impossible that anyone who has attained it has not either a) scripted or b) been led by someone with a script? That isn't a fun game to play. You shouldn't need to invest 30 days of play time (as I've recently been told "Myth is attainable in") to reach the max level, and then have to level that much more over again just to make sure the first time someone decides to gank you while you're waiting for friends at Roundabout you don't lose the title that's impossibly impossible to reach. Further, there should be incentive to do other things once you hit Myth. Right now, you hit myth, and you basically have nothing to do BUT grind or RP. And half (or more) of the players in the game refuse to actually RP. Sorry, but when I am in Sparkle and attempting to RP with you and you're giving me the full recount on how you can count coins and tell that you are exactly 42 progress levels from your next level - you're not giving much of a reason to do much else than grind npcs in this game. You can't tell people to "find something else to do" when there's little in the way of game content or player interaction that actually encourages it. Even the newbies that we are talking about can't refrain from using the help line as a chat room, despite repeated warnings not to (and now they've even got the vets doing it.) I had to break my pin, because I can't put the darn thing on and actually hold a conversation with anyone in the same room as me. At that point, what's the point in having it?
Cherek wrote:
Anyway, my examples are obviously worst case scenario, with botting completely free. But the more loose rules we have the closer we get to the worst case scenario.
But if we are not going to allow unlimited botting, we have to draw the line somewhere, which is what this thread is about. Do we set the rules like Chanele and a few others have suggested? If you dont watch your screen then you bot? Should we have a time limit for how long you can leave you screen? Can you run a script unattended for 15 min? 30 min? 1 hour? 2 hours? A day? A week? When do you become a bot? I mean we have to draw the line somewhere, or are we really gonna allow unlimited botting? Does anyone want that?
To counter your questions, if we are not going to allow "unlimited botting", then there needs to be a severe game overhaul. Players need to be able to exit combat swiftly (that means no more blocking NPCs). Players need to be able to LD as soon as they exit combat (that means no more prevention from LD within x minutes of combat). Players need to have a quick way of returning home without losing gear for when you know LD isn't going to be long enough (that means no more dusting gems.)
If we insist on limiting "botting", and you want suggestions, I'd go with the a suggestion posed by others, with some amendments.
If You Are Solo:
1) If you script more than one area (or the same area more than once) without responding to a bot test, then you face punishment.
2) If you kill someone with your poorly written script, then you face punishment.
3) If you steal someone's loot/kills, without responding to tell them to kindly f*** off (and thereby implying it's on purpose) and they report you with a log, you face punishment.
If You Are In A Team:
1) Your leader must be attentive.
2) If you play while being led, and you do not let your leader know of your need to be away, then you face punishment (believe me, a lot of leaders would report this. I know several who'd like to kill their own guildmates for doing this.)
3) If you play while being led and are away longer than an hour without checking in, you face punishment (again... a lot of leaders would report this, if it were an actual rule.)
4) Rules 2 and 3 above.
Rationale on the Above:
As a compromise, if we're limiting "botting" - When it comes to being solo - if you're running around on your own, you shouldn't be allowed to do multiple areas while not watching the screen. You are not being attentive enough to know what's going on when you go into the next area. You're not seeing what people you might pass in between.
If you are in a team, you should have a lead that is attentive, for the reasons outlined in the paragraph above. You should be required to let your leader know you are inattentive. You should keep being inattentive to short spurts (grabbing food, going to the bathroom, dealing with a small emergency that doesn't require LD). You shouldn't be stealing stuff from other people. At that point, it all goes onto the leader. It is their responsibility to make sure their team isn't f***ing up. If they are, then the leader will face repercussions. That's what they've agreed to by leading inactives.