Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

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Having read the note below, I think the idea sounds:

... worth a try, let's test it for a month.
38
72%
... like a mistake. Don't do it.
15
28%
 
Total votes: 53

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Alorrana
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Alorrana » 19 Apr 2015 18:58

You think about it, then bonk yourself on the head with your spiked steel
tessto! Your face brightens!


Ahhh ! :)
I’m not a complete idiot. Some pieces are missing.

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Habiki
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Habiki » 19 Apr 2015 21:37

It would certainly help the new people grow to compete with the older players. Mortal levels are mostly worthless as is. It's the stats that matter. This way mortal levels would mean something. I would encourage this suggestion, especially as a promotional gimmick.

The effects of any griefing would potentially be reduced, since you can only chop someone down so much. Killing someone two or three times doesn't have the same penalty.

Once people become myth, they have that locked in. Super-myths would and should have the most to lose.
I believe we've established that the majority on the forum disdain the idea of yet more mortal levels.

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Cherek
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Cherek » 19 Apr 2015 22:12

Many have mentioned the risk of abuse as people with not much to lose go after those with a lot to lose. But I think abuse is the wrong word here. Abuse is something else, and we already have rules about abuse, harassment and PVP, and they will still remain with the new system.

As I see it there is nothing abusive about attacking someone who has more to lose. It's a strategic choice, by both sides. This is one of the risk/reward features of this system. Either you stay at a threshold, be that champion, legend, myth, or whatever, for as long as you want. And live life with less risk. Or, you aim for the stars in terms of size, which comes with increased risks, but also increased rewards the bigger you grow.

I think this sounds interesting. Interesting enough for a trial at least.

I do agree that I do not think we should add more mortal levels. Or change those we have, except possible by adding new ones _between_ the old ones. If we feel the need for more thresholds, or want to give players the ego boost of reaching another mortal level more often. but I think that is something that could be evaluated after the trial has been running for awhile.

Mortis

Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Mortis » 19 Apr 2015 23:39

Cherek wrote:As I see it there is nothing abusive about attacking someone who has more to lose. It's a strategic choice, by both sides.
No, it's not. It's a strategic choice by the group with nothing to lose. There is no point for someone above their mortal level to fight people he cannot harm by killing. In fact it removes the impetus for fighting them.

Mortis

Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Mortis » 19 Apr 2015 23:41

This also gives free reign to players who have just hit a mortal level to try any quest or monster or exploration they want with zero risk of loss. Sure, they can die by testing out what they want, but there's no penalty. Why are we considering allowing this?

Greneth

Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Greneth » 20 Apr 2015 02:10

Mortis wrote:
Cherek wrote:As I see it there is nothing abusive about attacking someone who has more to lose. It's a strategic choice, by both sides.
No, it's not. It's a strategic choice by the group with nothing to lose. There is no point for someone above their mortal level to fight people he cannot harm by killing. In fact it removes the impetus for fighting them.
Well I would say if someone has the balls to get a group and attack you then the loot would be reward enough, as you won't find a group of three running in with green longswords and a body-stocking. As the Myth now doesn't have to worry about some cry baby posting his goodbye on the forums because he was killed... I would assume they would find the loot gathering off other players much more enjoyable now. Then again some of them just do it for the tears.

Either way at least this system promotes a semblance of interaction, as the current system blows... what would you suggest?

Mirandus
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Mirandus » 20 Apr 2015 02:21

Mortis wrote:This also gives free reign to players who have just hit a mortal level to try any quest or monster or exploration they want with zero risk of loss. Sure, they can die by testing out what they want, but there's no penalty. Why are we considering allowing this?
I think this is a good thing. There is nothing more disheartening for a new player to have just hit a mortal level they've been striving for only to make a stupid mistake and die back down below that mortal level. It is not fun.

Now, someone has the opportunity to say "Hmm, I wonder if..." and try it without worrying. They might die and then say "Guess not, need to try when I get bigger" or "Wow, I can't believe I can do this now". It allows for MORE exploration because you aren't worried, it allows for MORE risk taking because you aren't worried. Overall, in my opinion, it allows for more enjoyment.

That's my opinion of course. We can "What If" until til the cows come home. The only way we will KNOW how this has an impact, positive or negative, is to try it. To just dismiss it because it MIGHT cause some sort of negative issue is a little close-minded. If people are right and it sucks then we will go back to normal. Like with the Death Vacation, everyone knows this is a test. Who knows, it might end up being AWESOME and we will wonder why we didn't try it sooner!

Mortis

Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Mortis » 20 Apr 2015 02:35

There are a lot of parts to games that aren't fun. However, if you take them away, you may find your enjoyment for what's left waning.

The death vacation was not found to be a better way forward for the game. This proposition shares several of the same problems. We don't have to try anything "because we can" as the only reason. It's ok to think about the repercussions. I've posted a few concerns. I haven't heard a way to address them. I'm not in favor of a way for players to cheat death.

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Cherek
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by Cherek » 20 Apr 2015 04:18

Mortis wrote:
Cherek wrote:As I see it there is nothing abusive about attacking someone who has more to lose. It's a strategic choice, by both sides.
No, it's not. It's a strategic choice by the group with nothing to lose. There is no point for someone above their mortal level to fight people he cannot harm by killing. In fact it removes the impetus for fighting them.
Anyone can decide on not continuing to grow past myth. Sure, those who are already myth++ don't get that much of a choice. Except dying down to small myth of course. Which they absolutely could do if they wanted to. But all new myths will get the choice. And I think it would be really really good for Genesis to offer a benefit for NOT continuing to grow after myth. We should offer more than this I think, but this would be a start.

As for killing someone... Well, if the reason to kill someone is to make them suffer. Then yes, you're right. But is it really good if that is the number one reason to kill someone? To set them back months of grinding? To punish them? Could it not be enough to humiliate them, take their equipment, herbs and spell components, and get bragging rights? Why is further punishment needed? Why is that a good thing?

Also, if you wanna live your life without the XP loss when you die you certainly don't get it for free. It means you won't be able to grind much at all, and that you will be severely outmatched in PVP by those who keep on grinding. I think it gives you an interesting option, and I think it's something that long term could help with both player size differences and PVP interaction.
Mortis wrote: This also gives free reign to players who have just hit a mortal level to try any quest or monster or exploration they want with zero risk of loss. Sure, they can die by testing out what they want, but there's no penalty. Why are we considering allowing this?
Yes. There would be times in your life as a mortal where you could explore without much risk. Which in my opinion is a good thing. If you have checked the KILL-log lately you'll see it's full of real newbies dying all over the place. Genesis is extremely dangerous for a new player, I think we could ease up a little on that. And remember it's only fairly risk free when you have zero XP after hitting a new level. I think people will still die a lot when not at that threshold, and still receive the same old penalty for doing so. And Genesis will still be full of random death traps that people will run into and be frustrated about. But I think it makes sense to give people the option to NOT grow for a while, and instead explore some of these things that killed them in the past, or they are too scared to try, and perhaps never would have tried otherwise.

It sounds fun to me.

But everyone's different. I totally get that "hardcore" thing, that the world should be very dangerous, and everything should come with a risk. I am not saying we should turn into a super casual game where you only get rewards. However...

PVP today is pretty non-existing, if we want more of that, we need to make some changes. This change won't fix everything, but it might be one thing that helps. Also, while we do not have all that much feedback from truly new players, we do have some, and they often mention how frustrating it is that you die all the time, and that you lose levels when you do.

This experiment would attempt to address both these concerns.

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gorboth
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Re: Keeping your titles and basing them differently ...

Post by gorboth » 20 Apr 2015 04:24

Mortis wrote:This also gives free reign to players who have just hit a mortal level to try any quest or monster or exploration they want with zero risk of loss. Sure, they can die by testing out what they want, but there's no penalty. Why are we considering allowing this?
Primarily, because it sounds fun. I completely agree with what Mirandus wrote in response.
Mortis wrote:There are a lot of parts to games that aren't fun. However, if you take them away, you may find your enjoyment for what's left waning.

The death vacation was not found to be a better way forward for the game. This proposition shares several of the same problems. We don't have to try anything "because we can" as the only reason. It's ok to think about the repercussions. I've posted a few concerns. I haven't heard a way to address them. I'm not in favor of a way for players to cheat death.
I agree that there are concerns with this system, and that it will involve some aspects of game design that are not ideal. However, as Greneth (who I also agree with) pointed out, our current design is laden with heavy design flaws that have resulted in a gameplay dynamic that limits fun gameplay to grinding for the seeming majority of our players. I do agree with you that including hardships in games is part of what makes them fun (Dark Souls, anyone?). However, players have been saying for years that our death penalty is too harsh, which makes pvp very unfun all too often.

Worth a test, perhaps?

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

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