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Non-flamey Size Discussion 
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Rising Hero
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Joined: 29 Feb 2016 19:51
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Greneth wrote:
Syntaxes are hard and newbs have trouble learning them...

How about a massive recode where everyone pitches in and we standardize all the syntax for all the realms?
A full-game overhaul.
I'm not even kidding. I've been thinking about this ever since I stepped through the portal and found Sparkle to be immensely different from Tutori Isle (Silverdell?). Then traveling to Kalad, I found even more differences.
I thought, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if everything was standardized?"
So come on, let's do it.
I bet before the second day is over, everyone will have forgotten what they were complaining about.
Greneth wrote:
Should Mercade, Cot, Varian, Nerull, Cherek, Mirandus, Gorboth, Petros, Finwe all decide they are burnt out and enough is enough. Do you have the people to come fill those shoes?
...
It may not be a subject everyone wants to think of but people we are getting old. Some of us older then others. Without new blood in the game, the game will die. If you find your self importance worth more then the future of a game that brought you such great times then theres nothing left to discuss. No ones asking Genesis to not stay true to its core of an old school rpg. Whats being asked is to level the playing field and make the game once again challenging through other means then grind for years.
Is there anyone still around who is an original founder? I doubt it. People came and people filled their shoes. I'm a new player, but I don't plan on leaving. A friend of mine joined up and he seems kind of hooked too. New people are joining all the time. That's not to say they'll stay, but it is "new blood." And when people join and see other new people, they see an active game with a growing community. Which encourages them to stay. (If they're a community kind of person..)

Eventually, the game will change. Some people will hate it and they will leave. Others will love it and they will stay. More people will join and then they will comment on how the system is and what they don't like about it. The cycle goes on and on.
Don't get me wrong.. Petitioning for change is a good thing. If something is genuinely wrong, no one is going to get around to fix it unless someone gets annoyed by the problem and speaks up.
However, pointless arguments are not helpful. What, precisely, is pointless? Complaining about rude people being rude.
If it's a repeating offense and a serious problem, report the character. There are already rules in place to handle that situation.
If you're being ganked by someone for "RP Reasons" get clever and deal with them properly. Evade, prepare, have someone infiltrate and sabotage, and catch the offenders in a trap. Ambush and slaughter them, tag-teaming to make sure you always have healed dude(ette)s fighting. Then they'll probably cry about how it wasn't fair, you caught them off guard, boo-hoo..
Now, this may not work if it's a team of 9 nine Myths fully kitted out with imbues and spells, but that's where the ambush part comes in.

*stop*
*breathe*
*relax*

Okay, I've just said some insensitive things.
But I find the general line of bickering to be pointless.
Please, please, please! try to add something constructive to the conversation.
If you think there's a problem, say something.
List some things (as specific as possible) that you think would make the situation better.
Deliberate on the implications and the popularity of the idea.
Add more ideas and listen to others' ideas.
Work together to make a workable compromise.
Find someone willing to implement it.
Implement it. Alpha test.
Deliberate and improve the idea.
Implement new changed. Beta test.
More testing, more improvements.
Final tweaks, full release.

That's how work gets done and progress is made.

Work does not get done by saying "I don't like this. Change it," and not offering any advice on how to change it.
(Before someone says "I gave ideas! I want a hard cap," or "I proposed we change the leveling system," yes, those are suggestions, but they're general and open to interpretation. There's not enough specificity to go on. A hard cap? Okay, characters stop leveling after they hit Myth. Doesn't solve the problem, but hey you got a hard cap, so be happy! New leveling system? What kind? Xp for every hit/amount of dmg dealt? Sounds good! But it creates new problems. People will run in, smack things up and dash out before they take any damage. Eventually, you'll have Myths who have no idea how the combat system is supposed to work.
Both of these changes bring about what people asked for. But they break the game even further.

Cherek has been encouraging me to become a Wizard and implement my ideas.
I think I will at some point.
When I am a wizard, I'd gladly help change something people are complaining about.
But if you don't give me the exact details, I'm going to do what I want.
Ask me for a sandwich? I'm gonna give you anchovies and Tabasco on rye.
Ask me for a baloney sandwich with pickles and lettuce on sourdough with mayo and mustard and that's exactly what you'll get.

The point of this rant, for all the tl;dr people, is be productive in your criticism. Offer ideas on how something should be improved. If you don't have any solid ideas, work up some sort of concept and ask for ideas to further it.

Anecdote: I used to play League of Legends. (I know, I know.. Don't judge.) There was a particularly upsetting feature that was bugging a lot of people. People complained in the forums quite a lot. Riot Games pretty much ignored them all. A couple of my friends got fed up, talked about the problem, and formulated a solution. They sent it in to Riot Games. Two Thursdays later and there was a big patch. The problem was fixed. Why then and not after hundreds of complaints? No one wants to listen to whining brats. And that's exactly what the people forums sounded like. When a proper idea was submitted, it got recognition and then implementation. (It wasn't exactly how the idea was proposed, but Riot Games likes to do things their own way and take the credit.. At least the problem was fixed.)

This has become a bit of a rant and a slight derail, but I hope everyone at least takes away something to think about from all this..

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12 Jun 2016 04:09
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Wizard
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Cherek wrote:
Well, one could always argue that the previous stat nerf was simply not "good enough" since players broke through it and grew to sizes far beyond anyone's expectations anyway? Perhaps it is not proof that it was a completely bad idea, perhaps it was simply not implemented "correctly"? It all depends how you see it and what type of game we want.

If we want a game where grinding and reaching new stats and levels is the most important thing then perhaps PVP should be a lot more restrictive than it is now? So most players can enjoy the game in peace, regardless of level?

If we want a game were PVP is a big part, then players need to be a lot more equally matched for it to be truly fun.

I think it's hard to have both, which is kind of what we have now, and why there is so much discussion and complaints about this, and have been for many years. It probably the most discussed topic on these forums the last few years.


True, however, I'm of the opinion that rather than deflating stats we should adjust the brute system making it easier for newbies to reach at least titan or champion so that new players can more easily "catch up" to a 15 year old character. That way at least the size differential is not so drastic between old and truly new players and new players wouldn't have to spend 5-10 years to get to champion sized as some of us old timers did.


Last edited by Ckrik on 12 Jun 2016 07:23, edited 1 time in total.



12 Jun 2016 04:18
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Quote:
This has become a bit of a rant and a slight derail, but I hope everyone at least takes away something to think about from all this..


Sure and I hope they put it in its own thread due to as much. And dont worry you will be in good company with me there. Rebellious. I like it.

But try to also do something before you claim you will. There is no way to give you an easy route to being a good wiz. Even lowering your brute wont help you there.

So please adjust this and his comment to its own thread. Let him live as I do. On the edge of creativity.
Just dont delete his wiz. He is new :) hahaha haha


12 Jun 2016 04:27
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Quote:
True, however, I'm of the opinion that rather than deflating stats we should adjust the brute system so that it's easier for newbies to reach at least titan or champion so that new players can more easily "catch up" to a 15 year old character. That way at least the size differential is not so drastic between old and truly new players and new players wouldn't have to spend 5-10 years to get to champion sized as some of us old timers did.


This would do for these levels and beyond. Legend. Myth. By allowing those who are newer to have max quest easier.

The strange thing regarding max quest is some wizs have claimed well there is no reward to give for events etc ... but if there is no reward to give after quest events due to quest being capped, do you think there is one to give after combat xps are capped (thereby making quest mostly meaningless, amongst other issues?)?


12 Jun 2016 04:31
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Hero
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Melarec wrote:
(Before someone says "I gave ideas! I want a hard cap," or "I proposed we change the leveling system," yes, those are suggestions, but they're general and open to interpretation. There's not enough specificity to go on. A hard cap? Okay, characters stop leveling after they hit Myth. Doesn't solve the problem, but hey you got a hard cap, so be happy! New leveling system? What kind? Xp for every hit/amount of dmg dealt? Sounds good! But it creates new problems. People will run in, smack things up and dash out before they take any damage. Eventually, you'll have Myths who have no idea how the combat system is supposed to work.
Both of these changes bring about what people asked for. But they break the game even further


Only bit that was relevant to the conversation. You know..if the Thread-o-bot wants to come through and snip it or put it in it's own thread where it belongs.

_________________
All I am is your Van Gogh; I paint our dreams on the golden coast
I stay up high, flying solo; Don't come too close
I just ghost
I told you I am the new Poe; I sold my soul to the radio
I steal your heart in the shadows; Don't come too close
I just ghost


12 Jun 2016 04:45
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Rising Hero
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Opinions noted.

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Chillin
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12 Jun 2016 05:07
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@Melarec

Chereks already said it before, whose going to take on such a project? It is tedious and very boring work fixing syntaxes, sifting through miles of code, correcting words. As you put, find someone to implement it. I dont think you understand just how much some of those wizards carry this game on their backs and losing some of them even temporarily causes huge issues 9/10 times.

Actually many players are from the opening days and even the founders of the game do still stop in on occasion. Should many of those people not gotten older and moved on to other things the population would be bigger. Yet as many will point out numbers have dwindled at one point like Ydred said. To where at certain times only one or two of us were awake.

Its only recently that lots of newbies have come to try the game however the amount of traffic the game gets vs the amount of people who stick with the game past Hero are very very few. This isnt an estimate, this is a fact. New blood entails long term players not traffic coming through. The reason this is being talked about so much now is because of that traffic and why they dont wish to stay. Shoes are not being filled, lots of old players are returning is whats happening.

I love the enthusiasm and am glad youre here. Its very easy to repeat the words of a few without understanding the true nature of how things work. You think in the past 15 years no ones thought to try those suggestions? If it worked like that this conversation wouldnt be taking place.

Three things have already been discussed. Increased exp rate, hard cap and increasing npc difficulty. All three ive commented on. The concepts are all rather simple and I think you're over thinking them. The reasoning has already been discussed as well.

One - increased exp to allow newbies to feel useful and play catch up, Two hard cap to prevent the situation of the past where stat changes were made and power players went above and beyond to outgrown the content. This also prevents a loop from happening where in 15 more years we dont once again outgrow the content. Three an increase of NPC difficulty to prevent players like Ydred from having no excitement as they can literally solo the entire game.

Far from general, pretty specific. You dont need some wild exp per hit system, not sure where that even came from. You simply decrease the amount needed to reach that level. Or increase the exp gained, quite frankly the hows and whys are less important as long as the end results in an increase. The same applies to the other two examples, doesnt matter where you cap just cap. Doesnt matter how the difficulty is increased either via stats or new combat abilities, just increase it. However I only see everything working once all three are applied together.

You dont have to like my words or how i put things, many dont. But there is a reason behind them. Many dont want change, they view it as I worked for it its mine and ill be damned if you take it away. You view it as pointless ranting but to be quite frank when I see that who list its filled people ive played with since '02. And a very minimal amount of players who have stuck around for a year. And a ton of newbie players. No, shoes arent being filled. Cherek himself has already checked and said the same thing, there is no new blood that sticks beyond Hero but a handful. And even those are disgruntled.

So lots of constructive things have been added, I feel that sometimes people need to be reminded of the real problem because they may not see it. I also dont believe that one needs to always post an answer. Some people just have better ideas and may see the solution where one can only express concerns.


Last edited by Greneth on 12 Jun 2016 06:06, edited 1 time in total.



12 Jun 2016 05:50
Hero
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Joined: 18 Apr 2015 03:28
Posts: 388
Location: Vingaard Keep
Greneth wrote:
Cherek himself has already checked and said the same thing, there is no new blood that sticks beyond Hero but a handful. And even those are disgruntled.


I can think of only three. Egwene, Ghorphys, and myself. The first two are titans and I'm a hero. Those are bad numbers. I can't speak for the other two but I am very disgruntled.

_________________
All I am is your Van Gogh; I paint our dreams on the golden coast
I stay up high, flying solo; Don't come too close
I just ghost
I told you I am the new Poe; I sold my soul to the radio
I steal your heart in the shadows; Don't come too close
I just ghost


12 Jun 2016 05:57
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Joined: 29 Nov 2013 02:53
Posts: 237
Quote:
I can think of only three. Egwene, Ghorphys, and myself. The first two are titans and I'm a hero. Those are bad numbers. I can't speak for the other two but I am very disgruntled.



Egwene is not playing due to many other entertaining reasons. The calians did not gank her off. In fact she will represent Htown while surrounded by Euro Trash at the mudparty.

Gorpees, male me! Hop u do spek/udrstan da ogr stufs.


12 Jun 2016 06:25
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Rising Hero
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Joined: 29 Feb 2016 19:51
Posts: 318
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Greneth wrote:
@Melarec

Chereks already said it before, whose going to take on such a project? It is tedious and very boring work fixing syntaxes, sifting through miles of code, correcting words. As you put, find someone to implement it. I dont think you understand just how much some of those wizards carry this game on their backs and losing some of them even temporarily causes huge issues 9/10 times.[/qoute]That was more of a sarcastic remark. Standardization is far, far in the future if it is even possible.

Greneth wrote:
Actually many players are from the opening days and even the founders of the game do still stop in on occasion. Should many of those people not gotten older and moved on to other things the population would be bigger. Yet as many will point out numbers have dwindled at one point like Ydred said. To where at certain times only one or two of us were awake.
I hadn't realized. Though, "they do still stop in on occasion" denotes that they aren't necessarily active members of the community. While I wasn't around at the time of such a drastic lull, I'm glad the game bounced back. (The fact that it did bounce back is a good indicator of how good it is, despite problems..)

Greneth wrote:
Its only recently that lots of newbies have come to try the game however the amount of traffic the game gets vs the amount of people who stick with the game past Hero are very very few. This isnt an estimate, this is a fact. New blood entails long term players not traffic coming through. The reason this is being talked about so much now is because of that traffic and why they dont wish to stay. Shoes are not being filled, lots of old players are returning is whats happening.
I never thought of new blood that way.. To me, new blood is a new player who sticks around past the tutorial and past their first day in Sparkle. But, I suppose, by your definition, the game is indeed at a mild lull.

Greneth wrote:
I love the enthusiasm and am glad youre here.
Thank you!
Greneth wrote:
Its very easy to repeat the words of a few without understanding the true nature of how things work. You think in the past 15 years no ones thought to try those suggestions? If it worked like that this conversation wouldnt be taking place.
I'm sure it's been mentioned/discussed in the past. Nearly everything has. (Not necessarily here, but on a Global scale) Reiteration though, helps people to think about things. Especially if they've heard it before, but forgot.

Greneth wrote:
Three things have already been discussed. Increased exp rate, hard cap and increasing npc difficulty. All three ive commented on. The concepts are all rather simple and I think you're over thinking them. The reasoning has already been discussed as well.

One - increased exp to allow newbies to feel useful and play catch up, Two hard cap to prevent the situation of the past where stat changes were made and power players went above and beyond to outgrown the content. This also prevents a loop from happening where in 15 more years we dont once again outgrow the content. Three an increase of NPC difficulty to prevent players like Ydred from having no excitement as they can literally solo the entire game.

Far from general, pretty specific. You dont need some wild exp per hit system, not sure where that even came from. You simply decrease the amount needed to reach that level. Or increase the exp gained, quite frankly the hows and whys are less important as long as the end results in an increase.
Increased exp at low levels is something I can agree with. A hard cap, however, is not. Some games are built for it. Genesis, I feel, is not. Genesis is designed to keep growing and expanding. At least that's my take on it. This problem, in fifteen years, wouldn't come up if there were people willing to add new content for Myth characters and whatever may come after them in the long run. That singular comment has the power to upset at least five people, but it's my personal opinion. As far as increasing the difficulty of mobs, perhaps at higher levels, yes. Perhaps a mob that draws its stats from the attacker? Like someone with 10 attack starts the fight, the mob's attack becomes, say 11. Kind of an odd mechanic, but could provide some interesting gameplay.

Greneth wrote:
You dont have to like my words or how i put things, many dont. But there is a reason behind them. Many dont want change, they view it as I worked for it its mine and ill be damned if you take it away. You view it as pointless ranting but to be quite frank when I see that who list its filled people ive played with since '02. And a very minimal amount of players who have stuck around for a year. And a ton of newbie players. No, shoes arent being filled. Cherek himself has already checked and said the same thing, there is no new blood that sticks beyond Hero but a handful. And even those are disgruntled.
I don't mind anything you say. Some points I agree with you on. I haven't read anything so far that makes me dislike you. Also, I only accused myself of ranting. I think. <shrug> I agree that something should be done to help incentivize new players to stick around. Precisely what should be done I don't know. A reward system for recruiting new players would help.

Greneth wrote:
So lots of constructive things have been added, I feel that sometimes people need to be reminded of the real problem because they may not see it. I also dont believe that one needs to always post an answer. Some people just have better ideas and may see the solution where one can only express concerns.
This was addressed here:
Melarec wrote:
The point of this rant, for all the tl;dr people, is be productive in your criticism. Offer ideas on how something should be improved. If you don't have any solid ideas, work up some sort of concept and ask for ideas to further it.


PS: It should be noted, though it changes nothing, that I was upset (irl) at the time of posting that and I let it bleed through into my board presence which was very inappropriate. I apologize if I stepped on any toes, but I don't rescind any of my comments.

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12 Jun 2016 08:01
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