Non-flamey Size Discussion

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gold bezie
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by gold bezie » 13 Jun 2016 08:13

Well i guess it depends on how many of the for example tea can be drinkt and how often. otherwise it will be too easy i guess.

I like it though...

Another idea is another weekly quest thing like the kiosk or the herbthing.
Or just make questxp equal to normal xp (i never understood why that aint the case)
Or like make the events so that everyone can earn quest xp with it.

Tons of ideas here.

Wizards, any reason why you keep having the questxp as it is?
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Cherek
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Cherek » 13 Jun 2016 16:33

gold bezie wrote:Well i guess it depends on how many of the for example tea can be drinkt and how often. otherwise it will be too easy i guess.

I like it though...

Another idea is another weekly quest thing like the kiosk or the herbthing.
Or just make questxp equal to normal xp (i never understood why that aint the case)
Or like make the events so that everyone can earn quest xp with it.

Tons of ideas here.

Wizards, any reason why you keep having the questxp as it is?
Well if we just make quest XP normal XP we need to change how brutality works. Or remove it somehow. Either way it's a pretty big change. And, if we did that, quests will suddenly turn pretty meaningless unless we upgrade the XP for them. Why would anyone finish a quest if it does not lower your brutality, and if you do not get the benefit of not losing QXP when you die? The XP amounts are simply too small without those two benefits I think. So we would need to upgrade how much XP quests give. And possible make them repeatable? Or something? I am not sure I like the idea that you can finish the Zodiac, but die three times doing it, so in the end you have LESS XP after finishing it?

I think changing to have just one type of XP, and another type of brutality, or no brutality, is doable, but it has a number of problems that need to be fixed, and it's massive project to redo our quest system, especially if it means adjusting the rewards for our 300+ quests. Some argue that we should just remove quests completely, or simply keep them around but with little to no rewards except the "fun" of solving them, but I personally do not like the idea of a game where the ONLY way to grow is by killing X over and over and over again. Some players would probably love that, but I fear it will turn into a more one-dimensional game, that's even more about grinding, and scripting, than we currently have.

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Mim
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Mim » 14 Jun 2016 13:23

Cherek wrote:
Well if we just make quest XP normal XP we need to change how brutality works. Or remove it somehow. Either way it's a pretty big change. And, if we did that, quests will suddenly turn pretty meaningless unless we upgrade the XP for them. Why would anyone finish a quest if it does not lower your brutality,
That is a correct conclusion.
Why would anyone?
I certainly stopped questing when the cap was installed.
Why was it?
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gold bezie
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by gold bezie » 14 Jun 2016 14:32

I am sorry my english is not good enough to always make myself understandable in what i exactly mean. I mean ive read on the fb group that the amount of quest xp is not the same as the amount of normal xp. For example fantastic quest xp is not as much as fantastic normal xp.
I do not want to get rid of the quest xp, or maybe only if the quests would give other rewards as an extra emote or skill or weapon.
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Ody » 14 Jun 2016 15:09

Or how about instead of shoveling more garbage on the broken system, we fix the actual system. If someone like Morrison or Irk can get their god-mode on by getting to myth + 999999 fantas then the system has a flaw.
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Emmiline Calaith
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Emmiline Calaith » 14 Jun 2016 15:57

So, I decided to keep quiet for a bit and see where everyone else took this thread, and I have taken note of some things.

Greneth, Ody, Cherek, Avatar and I believe Goldbezie as well (sorry if I missed some people): You all seem to agree to a certain point at least that size is important, even when it comes to roleplay, and from what I read it sounds like you all want a change to help growth rate for players.

Greneth, I think you were the first one to actually point out that a lot (if not most) of the new players that start playing this game have little to no experience with MUDding? Whether or not it was you, that point is completely correct.

Not to be repetitive here, but I will use myself as an example.

Genesis stands as the first (and only) MUD that I play. When I first started, I didn't even know how to talk. I didn't even know that text-based games were called "MUDs". There was a much much more experienced player OOC who created a character to help others finish the tutorial. Why? Because there were newbies like me that needed that help. I had to be taught all the basics (when I started I only knew how to smile and frown, not even at a person, just the plain commands <smile> and <frown>).

I have tried many other MUDs since I started playing that all seem to have pretty much the same syntax. So, not only does Genesis have a much different syntax than other MUDs (even experienced MUDders who just start this game have told me that OOC) that is a bit more difficult to learn at first, the newbies arriving in Tutori Isle don't have the knowledge they need to even do simple things in the first place. They don't know Genesis has its own site, they don't know how to get help (I didn't know how to use the ntell command until I was a level away from losing it). And as a result, many of them quit the tutorial and just go straight to Sparkle out of frustration (if they can figure out how to do so). Then what happens? Many guilds here require you to be a certain level, race and/or alignment just to join. The newbies now have to spend hours hunting with their puny skill levels and if they're lucky enough to figure it out, a mistform weapon from the church. That's just for alignment, nevermind growth. Then they learn about a guild they like and have to lose EVERYTHING sometimes because they have to change their race. The lucky ones find bigger players to drag them around, but a lot of them don't find that fun because they can't kill anything, can't assist, etc., and therefore feel small, insignificant and some have even told me they feel useless to the team as a whole.

And on top of that, there are guilds that have a heavy roleplay requirement. And not just general roleplay- a specific roleplay to fit with their guild. Many newbies are looked down upon by those who are serious about roleplay if they don't do it themselves (not all, but a good amount). A lot of them have to be taught how to roleplay and even what roleplay is in the first place (I have taught many new players exactly that).. now they have to revise what they've learned to create the type of character the guild they like wants, on top of all this new and often overwhelming amount of information they have to learn and get the hang of. I think you can all see what I'm getting at here.

Now, I'm not trying to say that we need to bow down to new players. Quite honestly, to all of you players who have stuck with Genesis all this time, I tip my hat. A lot of you are very into roleplaying and that really enriches the community- and it urges those who don't roleplay/don't know how to try it out. Obviously, we don't want you to leave just as much as we want new players to stay.

However... it's obvious that there needs to be a starting point here for change.

I saw a lot of great ideas from many on this thread. So, taking from those, what about this:

-Have some sort of help system in Tutori Isle besides the NPCs and the quests and the tutorial journal. A lot of new players don't even get to find all of those chapters in the journal, nor know enough to complete the quests in Tutori Isle when they're starting. What if we start a new branch of helpers? Perhaps there could be a group of players that are specifically given the job to help newbies in the Tutorial? For instance, people could sign up, and would make either an alt that is given certain abilities, or maybe it could be a smaller branch of wizards? (people would sign up specifically for that branch of the wizards, so it wouldn't be the same as the other types with the training and all that). Basically it would be a more wizard-y version of newbie helpers. If it weren't for that experienced player's alt in the tutorial when I started, I would have quit myself because I didn't know what to do or how to do it. I think a LOT of newbies could benefit from this. They could teach roleplay, commands, syntax, movement, emoting, ect. They would have to be unbais, of course, they would not be allowed to sway the new player to go a certain route of alignment or anything, they would give them the straight facts ect.

-Celemir gave a really nice suggestion for bigger players that might boost motivation to grow as well as how fair it might feel for the bigger and older players. A lot of them have spent at least a decade, if not more, playing Genesis to get where they are today, there's no doubt about that. When you reach 100 days, you can join the Wise People of Genesis and get free emote. I think having special items for big players might not be such a bad idea, it sort of has the same concept as that club. Maybe even add more clubs for older and/or bigger players. Possibly player-run ones, like the Actors' Club, like one specifically for people that joined in x-range of years or people that were apart of y guild from the early days. That sounds pretty fair to me.

-Draugor also brought up something I know has been contemplated for a while between players and wizards alike: stat imbues. Perhaps that could go along with a sort of stat cap, whether it be a true one or one that works like "if you are z level of strength, this imbue will give you ___ much of an increase" and so on.

-I think Meralac's suggestion could be implemented if it was a *temporary* adjustment, like all other herbs, or maybe it could be a special herb you get from the events. For instance, the reward you get from the chef's station helps you grow at a faster rate. Why not have something similar from another NPC once a week that gives you a certain herb that lowers brutality a certain amount for the day or however long as a reward? That would make things a bit more worth while to a fair amount of people

We share this game, guys, every one of us. It doesn't matter how long you've played, it doesn't matter what generation of players you belong to. We are all apart of the same community, and we all want this game to grow and stick around. We have that in common and we should be using it to help the game grow, thrive and develop. We all have our own ideas on how that should happen, of course, but I think instead of getting so worked up with each other we should just agree to disagree.. fighting like this gets us nowhere, and honestly, it tunes out ideas that others have that could actually help solve the problem we all (or, at least, the majority of us) want to be fixed. These are just my thoughts, you can agree and not agree as you wish, I just thought maybe we should all be looking for a happy medium here. (:
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Thalric
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Thalric » 14 Jun 2016 16:48

I would suggest going back to what was, and possibly take it a bit further.

Remove mortal levels from the game. It doesn't really add anything, other than something to achieve.
Make the highest stat lower than what it is now. The old system was fine. Old immortal was around new epic.

Without these, comparing yourself with others become interesting, and you would never have any other idea of others' size.

Without those levels, all the "I must get to the highest level" people will hopefully find something else to do. They can no longer show off.
The only thing that might be an issue, is how often you might want to kill someone a lot smaller than you.
But that could be dealt with easily, by putting in some "safety" when trying to kill people 30-40% smaller than yourself.

Then nobody would really have any super reason to grind away endlessly, since there would be no real goal. Most people can reach max level stats fast, and we can perhaps get back to before the huge grind.

Ohh.. and another critical thing in this.. Remove the recovery!

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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Kilrayne » 14 Jun 2016 17:35

Trying to keep this constructive and non-flamey.

I understand the perspective of younger and smaller players. I really do. I remember a Gen with no Tutori island, no quest orbs, no ntell line, and no revised death recovery. To get help from anybody you had to really interact and ingrain yourself with other players, usually by joining a guild. It took time for anyone (with some exceptions) to really take the time out to help a newbie, so I get it. In that regard, also acknowledge the contributions my wizards to make Gen a more newb-friendly place. Kilrayne is 60-something days old, and isn't much bigger than many of you. My previous character was over 100 days and was probably hero/small titan sized. It was a choice of my playstyle. I didn't do as many quests, roleplayed more and didn't like the grind. I've made different choices with Kil. He'll grow to be bigger, much bigger probably, but I can't see him cracking the top 10 in any stat. Mostly because I don't care.

As I've stated elsewhere, I would vote strongly against a statcap, and would likely stop playing if one were implemented. I just can't get behind an idea that limits the dedicated in favor of the casual. I think diminishing returns on stat (no skills) imbues as a player gets bigger is an interesting idea that could be helpful. Further examination of quests, esp. syntax, would be a good idea to help new folks more. Maybe extend the life of "starter" guilds like the cadets where a lower tax could benefit early growth, or maybe allow a tiered guild tax system that allows smaller players to experience faster growth, up to a larger mortal level (hero?) where they would pay full tax.

Beyond that, I think many of the tools are already there. It is already much easier to gain large size than it used to be and much easier to recover from death. My perspective, in the end, if that if your size isn't what you think it should be, it's on you. That's how I feel. I understand some of the frustration, but if you want to be bigger grab a friend and grind it out. I would be willing to bet you would grow faster if you did. If you need a better brute base knock out more quests. The framework could use some refining, but doesn't need an overhaul as far as I'm concerned.


Edit: I felt it important to clarify why I draw on some "good ol' days" stories, as there are some who react negatively to this. It's because one of the things that drew me to Gen was the mystique. So many mysteries, people hoarding information, unraveling secrets and testing ideas to gain your own hard-fought knowledge. WARNING: OLD MAN RANT FORTHCOMING. Kids today are too accustomed to cheat codes and game guides. How does it make a game more fun to be able to have all the information at your fingertips?

Greneth

Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Greneth » 14 Jun 2016 18:14

Kilrayne wrote:Trying to keep this constructive and non-flamey.

I understand the perspective of younger and smaller players. I really do. I remember a Gen with no Tutori island, no quest orbs, no ntell line, and no revised death recovery. To get help from anybody you had to really interact and ingrain yourself with other players, usually by joining a guild. It took time for anyone (with some exceptions) to really take the time out to help a newbie, so I get it. In that regard, also acknowledge the contributions my wizards to make Gen a more newb-friendly place. Kilrayne is 60-something days old, and isn't much bigger than many of you. My previous character was over 100 days and was probably hero/small titan sized. It was a choice of my playstyle. I didn't do as many quests, roleplayed more and didn't like the grind. I've made different choices with Kil. He'll grow to be bigger, much bigger probably, but I can't see him cracking the top 10 in any stat. Mostly because I don't care.

As I've stated elsewhere, I would vote strongly against a statcap, and would likely stop playing if one were implemented. I just can't get behind an idea that limits the dedicated in favor of the casual. I think diminishing returns on stat (no skills) imbues as a player gets bigger is an interesting idea that could be helpful. Further examination of quests, esp. syntax, would be a good idea to help new folks more. Maybe extend the life of "starter" guilds like the cadets where a lower tax could benefit early growth, or maybe allow a tiered guild tax system that allows smaller players to experience faster growth, up to a larger mortal level (hero?) where they would pay full tax.

Beyond that, I think many of the tools are already there. It is already much easier to gain large size than it used to be and much easier to recover from death. My perspective, in the end, if that if your size isn't what you think it should be, it's on you. That's how I feel. I understand some of the frustration, but if you want to be bigger grab a friend and grind it out. I would be willing to bet you would grow faster if you did. If you need a better brute base knock out more quests. The framework could use some refining, but doesn't need an overhaul as far as I'm concerned.


Edit: I felt it important to clarify why I draw on some "good ol' days" stories, as there are some who react negatively to this. It's because one of the things that drew me to Gen was the mystique. So many mysteries, people hoarding information, unraveling secrets and testing ideas to gain your own hard-fought knowledge. WARNING: OLD MAN RANT FORTHCOMING. Kids today are too accustomed to cheat codes and game guides. How does it make a game more fun to be able to have all the information at your fingertips?
Im just curious though wouldnt making the game more challenging for all be more benficial then the solo everything we have now? More PvP, more challenging NPC due to everyone being smaller. I guess what i just fail to understand is this want of unlimited growth.

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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Kilrayne » 14 Jun 2016 18:18

Greneth wrote:
Im just curious though wouldnt making the game more challenging for all be more benficial then the solo everything we have now? More PvP, more challenging NPC due to everyone being smaller. I guess what i just fail to understand is this want of unlimited growth.

Fair question. for me the answer is: I'd like to have the option to grow , and I'd like my growth to mean something. In other words, if I have put forth the time to grow, why shouldn't I enjoy the benefits of my labor? If I've put in that time and effort, and I'm bigger than someone in a fight, why is that a problem?

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