Non-flamey Size Discussion

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Greneth

Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Greneth » 14 Jun 2016 18:48

Kilrayne wrote:
Greneth wrote:
Im just curious though wouldnt making the game more challenging for all be more benficial then the solo everything we have now? More PvP, more challenging NPC due to everyone being smaller. I guess what i just fail to understand is this want of unlimited growth.

Fair question. for me the answer is: I'd like to have the option to grow , and I'd like my growth to mean something. In other words, if I have put forth the time to grow, why shouldn't I enjoy the benefits of my labor? If I've put in that time and effort, and I'm bigger than someone in a fight, why is that a problem?
But whats there to enjoy is where I get confused. Ive never heard a Myth say, I love how easy it is to grind now that I can solo the whole game. Or, the PvP is really intense as I run around killing RH-Champs.

If Kilrayne was a super huge Myth right now. What would you do for fun? Grind to get even bigger? Ignore the majority of the population as you grind and grind for bigger stats? Have a script running while you work or watch tv? You can already obtain any item, solo any killing grounds, kill 80% of the population without relying on PvP tools with just your size alone.

At what point does a part of you stop to say... maybe battling for the highest stats really isnt as fun as having to form a group to kill Qualinesti Elves. Id like to prove that I have PvP skills which show off my knowledge of in game items rather then ive just got huge stats. And it would be fun to see a group of Heros stand up against a bigger foe they have a chance against.

Kilrayne
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Kilrayne » 14 Jun 2016 19:05

Greneth wrote:

But whats there to enjoy is where I get confused. Ive never heard a Myth say, I love how easy it is to grind now that I can solo the whole game. Or, the PvP is really intense as I run around killing RH-Champs.

If Kilrayne was a super huge Myth right now. What would you do for fun? Grind to get even bigger? Ignore the majority of the population as you grind and grind for bigger stats? Have a script running while you work or watch tv? You can already obtain any item, solo any killing grounds, kill 80% of the population without relying on PvP tools with just your size alone.

At what point does a part of you stop to say... maybe battling for the highest stats really isnt as fun as having to form a group to kill Qualinesti Elves. Id like to prove that I have PvP skills which show off my knowledge of in game items rather then ive just got huge stats. And it would be fun to see a group of Heros stand up against a bigger foe they have a chance against.
If Kil were a super-huge myth? I don't know what I would do, not a problem I've had thus far. :D
Frankly though, to your point I might play less, or I might try and RP more or help younger players more. Not sure. I think the end game issue is that many games suffer from; at some point, you've done it all, what next?

I guess where we differ is that my answer to that issue is different. I don't see limiting people for their work as a viable option. If you want to help new folks grow, I'm on board. I think that capping people and making everyone equal takes away creativity: if we're all the same size and I can 1-v-1 everybody, why should I get teams, or find ambush spots, or gather herbs and other consumables?

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Melarec
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Melarec » 14 Jun 2016 19:26

Kilrayne wrote:
Greneth wrote:Im just curious though wouldnt making the game more challenging for all be more benficial then the solo everything we have now? More PvP, more challenging NPC due to everyone being smaller. I guess what i just fail to understand is this want of unlimited growth.
Fair question. for me the answer is: I'd like to have the option to grow , and I'd like my growth to mean something. In other words, if I have put forth the time to grow, why shouldn't I enjoy the benefits of my labor? If I've put in that time and effort, and I'm bigger than someone in a fight, why is that a problem?
The problem with unlimited growth, as it has been pointed out, is content and player interaction. There comes a point where the available content is simply too weak for a character. Also, when a character is, say 600 days old, has beaten every quest, maxed every skill and has a temper, it's hard to stay in the same room with them. It's analogous to a biker walking into a bar full of sissies. They run.
Honestly, the only way I can see to handle this problem is a tiered PvP system. I think I mentioned it before.. This could perhaps be combined with "Breakable Hard Caps" Let me explain. Lets say the first cap is at (for example's sake..) level 10. A character levels everything up to ten and then it stops. The character can still fight level 1-10 players. However, the character can choose to break past level ten. Now the cap is at level 20. Now the only players he can fight are level 11-20. It's a reasonable system. To me at least. I'm sure others will argue against it with a passion.

As for the content problem, there are two solutions that I can see.
One, keep adding newer, stronger content. Not really a long term solution, but it is appealing.
Two, mix it in with the above mentioned tier system. Each mob would have a minimum level. Once the character surpasses that level, they should be able, theoretically, to defeat that mob. When they tier up, so does the mob. If it could be done, this would make things a lot more appealing at the higher levels.
There would be a lot of problems coding it though.. It could make initiating a battle very laggy.. And if someone attacks a mob, the mob mirrors their level, then they leave, a smaller player could waltz in and get one shotted by a (normally) easy mob. Perhaps a timer on their stats? As soon as the attacker leaves, they reset? As soon as battle ends, if there are others fighting it? All very complex.

Neither of these are grand solutions, but I'm sure something could be done..
Greneth wrote:But whats there to enjoy is where I get confused. Ive never heard a Myth say, I love how easy it is to grind now that I can solo the whole game. Or, the PvP is really intense as I run around killing RH-Champs.
If Kilrayne was a super huge Myth right now. What would you do for fun? Grind to get even bigger? Ignore the majority of the population as you grind and grind for bigger stats? Have a script running while you work or watch tv? You can already obtain any item, solo any killing grounds, kill 80% of the population without relying on PvP tools with just your size alone.
At what point does a part of you stop to say... maybe battling for the highest stats really isnt as fun as having to form a group to kill Qualinesti Elves. Id like to prove that I have PvP skills which show off my knowledge of in game items rather then ive just got huge stats. And it would be fun to see a group of Heros stand up against a bigger foe they have a chance against.
Personally, I don't mind being able to walk through a game, casually slaughtering every enemy with ease. It allows me to focus on the story. Similarly, in Genesis, characters that can go anywhere with impunity have massive RP opportunities. The fact that (okay, accusation maybe?) certain people "pretend RP" just to abuse it is just a matter of that person's play style. That's not to say it's right, but there's nothing you can do short of banning them.
The point is, once a character reaches a size where they don't have to worry about mobs, they can focus more on RP.

Ydred
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Ydred » 14 Jun 2016 19:56

And once everyone is the same size. Size wont be an issue.

Til you have your 15 titans vs my 5 titans. Oh then we need to reduce the numbers allowed in the pvp box you make. So it is equal in all aspects. And let us also reduce all skills to same set. Cause guilds having different skills could be more powerful than others.

So much rubbish in this whine thread. That is all I see. Whines and more whines followed by crap logic.

Emmiline Calaith
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Emmiline Calaith » 14 Jun 2016 20:16

I'm not so sure a breakable hard cap would be a good idea. People that are close in level should be able to have PvP opportunities with each other and if someone is being harassed by a troll or something, they would be left defenseless and the harasser could just keep doing what they're doing. Besides- just because someone can't PvP with a certain player due to a breakable cap, doesn't mean they won't find ways around making sure the other player suffers somehow if they're angry with them (taking their things, killing their mount, killing and/or attacking people close to that person, and therefore threatening them not to mess with them or others will pay). And this could apply to guilds at war with each other as well as just players getting into a fight IC or OOC.
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Kilrayne
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Kilrayne » 14 Jun 2016 20:37

Ody wrote:Well..the discussion in the flames kinda..degenerated.. I figured it would be good to have the same discussion in a moderated place.

Look. As I said in the other thread some sort change needs to take place. I'm just going to reposte what I said in the other thread..edited a bit:
I've been biting my tongue for a long time on this subject. Look. I love Genesis. I love the rp. The community (for the most part..). The guilds. All the fun it's brought me. I'm not the biggest true newbie in the last two years, no. But you know what I am?



You are 134 days 9 hours 7 minutes 38 seconds of age.



I'm the oldest and I'm sick of having so little to show for it. My game time isn't spent grinding and questing all hours of the day, it's spend roleplaying and interacting with people. Granted, I do do a lot of hunting and questing. But after two years of playing this game, lots of roleplaying and all I have to show for it is being hero?

I'm going to say something that few want to admit. If a player can spend so many hours playing this game and they only get to Hero then this game is broken! It's so broken that it's driving players AWAY from the game! I've lost friends because once you hit a certain level you're stuck there! you hit the Hero/Titan wall and your stuck.

What do you have to show for it after all that hard work? Well, you can't PvP against with most people you'd need to, for me it's DAs. After so many hours of the game I'm only Hero. Now, thankfully I've got lots of friends to help me, quest walkthroughs, and all that. But what about those who don't? They're stuck. They can't grow, they can't rp because a myth can just squash them!


I love this game. But you know what gets tiring? The fact it's broken to the point I can't even rp a character I love being so much because I can't stand against any of my enemies.

I've heard people shout "Stat Cap!" for two years. I KNOW it's been said way longer then that. I've discussed it with many other players. We want a cap! We want the playing field leveled! I know wizards have some ideas about how to do it! Why don't they?

1. PvP rules suck. A clear newbie gets two shotted by a super myth excuses get made and wizards end up doing NOTHING!

2. Clear size differences. People of guild A get hunted to death by guild B and it's okay because they're natural enemies.

The community wants a stat cap, or some sort of leveling of the playing field.
While I appreciate all the suggestions, this is what I keep coming back to. This is where my struggle to understand the perspective begins and ends. Gen, like most things, has tradeoffs. The cost of the time that we spend RPing, or herbing, or taking newbies grinding is our own personal progress. In every game that I have ever played, there is differentiation. For games like WoW, you can max level, but the more dedicated players who spend their time in arenas and raiding are rewarded with better gear. In a game like Eve, a player will have a bigger or better ship than his peers who have not spent as much time. In Gen, gear doesn't last, so the difference is in one's stats. If we look at Gen as RP being a primary source of the fun, then what's RP about a homogenous population? How does that incent me to RP? What happens to consequences if a little cadet can slap a Morgul Mage without fear of retribution?

Ydred
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Ydred » 14 Jun 2016 20:47

How does that incent me to RP? What happens to consequences if a little cadet can slap a Morgul Mage without fear of retribution?
That is just it. It isnt RP unless you RP like they want you to RP. If you are an evil undead being it must be you the Master of the Player. Something is wrong with you. Your anger as one of them said. Your temper your flaws. Just stupid BS.

Kilrayne
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Kilrayne » 14 Jun 2016 21:11

Ydred wrote:
How does that incent me to RP? What happens to consequences if a little cadet can slap a Morgul Mage without fear of retribution?
That is just it. It isnt RP unless you RP like they want you to RP. If you are an evil undead being it must be you the Master of the Player. Something is wrong with you. Your anger as one of them said. Your temper your flaws. Just stupid BS.
I understand the frustration. :D

Seriously though, to Ody, Greneth and others, how do you justify proposed changes from an RP perspective?

Thalric
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Thalric » 14 Jun 2016 21:30

Instead of talking justification, isn't it more a question about what kind of game this should be?

What made everyone start playing Genesis, and what is keeping people around?

Is it the ability to play a role? Immersion into the RP?
Is it the unlimited growth? Grinding your heart away on a script? Or without a script?

I personally keep coming back because I cannot get the same options of playing a role, and have others respond in kind to that role, in any other game I have ever played. Genesis is totally unique to me, in that regard.

That is what I want most..!

But I also like to grow, hunt eq and xp.
Anyone that kept an eye on my current character will know the truth of that.

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Ody
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Re: Non-flamey Size Discussion

Post by Ody » 14 Jun 2016 22:01

Kilrayne wrote:Seriously though, to Ody, Greneth and others, how do you justify proposed changes from an RP perspective?
Are you saying it's good for a roleplay environment to allow characters to grow beyond the content of the game itself? And you say we're using bad logic.
All I am is your Van Gogh; I paint our dreams on the golden coast
I stay up high, flying solo; Don't come too close
I just ghost
I told you I am the new Poe; I sold my soul to the radio
I steal your heart in the shadows; Don't come too close
I just ghost

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