Bringing back old guilds and the forums rules

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Mim
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Re: Bringing back old guilds and the forums rules

Post by Mim » 05 Aug 2017 23:48

nils wrote:
I might be a little slow, but could you possibly be speaking about the completely out of order "neutral" layman guild with more combat aid than some occupational guilds, who's absurd game-breaking abilities are completely reliant on taxation to justify said abilities?
I'm lost. What guild is this?
As an explorer, you have done enough to retire.

Draugor
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Re: Bringing back old guilds and the forums rules

Post by Draugor » 06 Aug 2017 00:03

Mim wrote:
nils wrote:
I might be a little slow, but could you possibly be speaking about the completely out of order "neutral" layman guild with more combat aid than some occupational guilds, who's absurd game-breaking abilities are completely reliant on taxation to justify said abilities?
I'm lost. What guild is this?

Elemental worshippers :P

They are capabl of breaking quite a few guilds xD

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Arman
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Re: Bringing back old guilds and the forums rules

Post by Arman » 06 Aug 2017 03:11

Dread wrote:
Arman wrote:The idea that the more tax you pay the better you are at grinding or combat or pvp is wildly wrong, and is a really poor measure of whether a guild is "apex" or not.
Combat ability is a poor measurement... Lol, ok. I am not sure where this term "apex" comes from? Is that the term wizards use to justify some guilds having a much better quality of life? I am sure it's just my ridiculous mortal ignorance, but golly gee whiz there sure seems to be a correlation between tax and combat ability, but I will spare everyone the obvious arguments here. Is "apex" part of this while RPS smoke and mirrors we hear about?
Arman wrote:The maximum amount of combat aid a guild can have is capped. Most guild abilities maximise that cap, so really tax variation is usually due to skills (and there is a skills cap, so that variation is limited) and thematic / versatility /cosmetic reasons. Not that mortals would have any idea about how much tax a guild pays... seeing only immortals can access that information *cough cough*.
How convenient mortals are never allowed proof. *cough cough HACK*
I'd love to be able to walk you through the specifics Dread, but Genesis has had good reason for not providing any of the numbers behind the game to players. As it is I am probably walking a fine line in explaining how it works it in generalities.

All guilds have the same cap on the amount of combat aid they get. Where 'apex' comes into discussions is when you start talking about the specialised damage dealers, or the specialised defensive guilds.. so apex offensive and apex defensive. Then you have guilds that have a mix of offensive and defensive abilities. They aren't 'apex' at anything.. but are more rounded in their abilities. All in all these guilds pay around the same tax for their combat aid, because they all use up to their cap.. so variation in guild tax is usually because of something else. So yes, correlation between combat aid and tax... but it isn't going to be a significant causation of tax difference with guilds of the same type (occ vs occ, lay vs lay) because they are all at the combat aid cap :). So it isn't correct to say guilds with the highest tax have the most combat aid.

One other thing that will influence guild tax differences is that magic guilds get an EXTRA tax on top of everything else for each spell they have. So they will pay tax for the benefits their spells provide in combat, but will also pay on top of that an additional tax per spell. So magic guilds will always be more highly taxed for the combat aid they provide over other styles of guild.

That tax was introduced with the new magic system. So guilds that converted over to that (PoT, elementalists, MM) will have noticed a significant tax hike. When some of the other guilds finally get converted over (ie Heralds, tbc) they'll notice it too... and then maybe some of the angst being directed at the elementalists will soften? Because the tax they pay is going to be pretty standard for a layman magic/cleric guild.

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Cherek
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Re: Bringing back old guilds and the forums rules

Post by Cherek » 06 Aug 2017 04:11

Well, there there's no secret Genesis has some balance problems when it comes recoded vs not recoded guilds. Worshippers are the only layman magic guild that is recoded and has been converted to the new magic system. There's no denying that Worshippers are for most players a more powerful layman option than the other magic layman options. Just like most recoded occupational guilds are more powerful than not recoded ones. Thankfully there's not many of those left at least. But yeah, that's not exactly a secret. We all know that.

As for tax, well as Arman explained really well, the important thing these days is really the combat aid. And of course, the more guilds with similar combat aid numbers, the more balanced the game will be overall, but as long as we have a mix of recoded and not recoded guilds, that is a problem.

Another "problem" is of course that despite all the numbers and calculations, players usually find ways to use a guild, and combine guilds, that perhaps the wizard coding had not considered. Players are clever, and 100 players are likely to find things that 1 creator never thought about, that might skew balance, despite everyone's best intentions from the start. Numbers are one thing, and how it plays out in the real game is another. This is of course true in all commercial games too, which is why they are heavily beta tested before release, and still they have to constantly release balance tweaks and updates long after the game is on the market. For obvious reasons, we don't really have the same possibilities. For Genesis to become truly balanced, we'd really need a big team that's just constantly monitoring everything that goes on, and makes constant tweaks based on data recorded from player usage, and that's probably not realistic.

Am I making excuses? Maybe. But it's also the reality when developing a game like this. But we should of course always try to make things as fun and balanced as possible for all players, and I have no doubt that is what all our active wizards want and try to achieve.

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Mim
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Re: Bringing back old guilds and the forums rules

Post by Mim » 06 Aug 2017 11:05

Draugor wrote:
Mim wrote:
nils wrote:
I might be a little slow, but could you possibly be speaking about the completely out of order "neutral" layman guild with more combat aid than some occupational guilds, who's absurd game-breaking abilities are completely reliant on taxation to justify said abilities?
I'm lost. What guild is this?
Elemental worshippers :P
Oh. I applied there once in the stone age, but I never got going.
Now I am a singing mercenary instead and I'm quite satisfied with that.
And the combat aid Minstrels provide is very powerful too.
Bravuro for exampel. A song that raise DIS. It could scare anyone, could it not?
As an explorer, you have done enough to retire.

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Arman
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Re: Bringing back old guilds and the forums rules

Post by Arman » 06 Aug 2017 14:58

Mim wrote:
Oh. I applied there once in the stone age, but I never got going.
Now I am a singing mercenary instead and I'm quite satisfied with that.
And the combat aid Minstrels provide is very powerful too.
Bravuro for exampel. A song that raise DIS. It could scare anyone, could it not?
Britanica was working on an absolutely FANTASTIC recode of the Minstrels back when I started on the SoHM... where minstrels could perform their mundane songs throughout the Donut at various locations. There would be a Genesis Top 100, where Minstrels achievement ranks would be influenced by how many of their songs were in the top 100... and the power of their performance auras would be influenced by their fame. What he had in mind would have created true bardmanship gameplay. Sadly, he lost motivation to work on it and I haven't seen him around in a while.

For those curious, the Genesis Top 10 mundane songs for January 2016 were:
Top - Song Name Author
1 - Herbing Britanica
2 - Battle of the Amulets of Athas Naiad
3 - Hobbit Drinking song Elenthil
4 - Lady Ghilraen Sionell
5 - Hail And Kill Manowar
6 - Wynken, Blynken and Nod Winterhart
7 - Song of Huma Teth
8 - The Knight of the Black Rose Teth
9 - The Epic of Avalantis Avalantis
10 - The Kender Cyris

Other notables:
35 - Crown and the ring Carnak
57 - The Flame Nellnight
129 - Epic of Irk Irk
146 - Rubber Ducky Mersereau

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Cherek
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Re: Bringing back old guilds and the forums rules

Post by Cherek » 06 Aug 2017 18:17

Yeah Britanica had some truly awesome and very ambitious ideas for the Minstrels. Too ambitious he told me, and he instead put that project on ice to work a an expansion of the Kobold area, to learn more about Genesis programming first. A sensible choice I think, he was still a quite new wizard and as I mentioning before, coding and recoding guilds is not a trivial matter. Unfortunately Britanica was swallowed by RL, but perhaps one day he will return and at some point take up his really cool Minstrel ideas.

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Mim
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Re: Bringing back old guilds and the forums rules

Post by Mim » 06 Aug 2017 18:38

Cherek wrote:Yeah Britanica ..... perhaps one day he will return and at some point take up his really cool Minstrel ideas.
And there we are unfortunately.
Maybe BRAVORO will own Genesis one day, when high Disciplin will make a combat difference.

You start playing a song....
Mim playes bravuro.
The balrog starts trembling in his boots
The huge troll shakes with fear
The huge troll shakes with fear
The huge troll shakes with fear
The huge troll shakes with fear
The huge troll shakes with fear
The huge troll shakes with fear
The huge troll shakes with fear
The huge troll shakes with fear
**Short and quick fight**
As an explorer, you have done enough to retire.

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