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Stat Modifiers - racial or otherwise ... 

Should stat-mods (race-based, or otherwise) stay or go?
Keep them - as they are is fine 28%  28%  [ 19 ]
Keep them - but change them! 51%  51%  [ 35 ]
Remove them - no mods plz! 21%  21%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 68

Stat Modifiers - racial or otherwise ... 
Author Message
Site Admin
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Posts: 2236
Location: Some old coffin
Etanukar wrote:
As one who delved into other muds long ago before landing on Gen, part of the fun and draw of this game for me is the diversity of the races. Whats the flipside of all of this complaining? A standard playing field where the only thing different is the description. Some of you think that is utopian, but if you havent experienced what you request first hand, how can you have a concept of it?
Examples:
All races have the same attributes and stats - no differences at all.
All of the characters have the same cap on size, HP and mana... for sake of argument, lets call this the current level of genesis hero
All class specialties (guilds) have 1 special that does the exact same amount of damage and takes the exact same amount of time to use as every other class or guild... the only thing different is how it looks
Does it sound boring yet?
No? Ok, no equipment in the game is any better than forged smith items, except for 5 unique items in the game.
Oh wait... this mud had color as part of the mudlib... so your combat could be color coded for different hits
Ok, my character is maxed, now what? Well no reason to grind... I can either A) kill other players B) try to find bugs/exploits C) socialize or D) find a new game. I chose the latter.
I know I am not the only one who has experienced this in the past...
I just say be careful of what you wish for.

Ugh ... sounds like a DikuMud ...

*shudder*

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03 Oct 2017 21:49
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Rising Hero

Joined: 27 Jun 2011 13:20
Posts: 371
gorboth wrote:
Etanukar wrote:
As one who delved into other muds long ago before landing on Gen, part of the fun and draw of this game for me is the diversity of the races. Whats the flipside of all of this complaining? A standard playing field where the only thing different is the description. Some of you think that is utopian, but if you havent experienced what you request first hand, how can you have a concept of it?
Examples:
All races have the same attributes and stats - no differences at all.
All of the characters have the same cap on size, HP and mana... for sake of argument, lets call this the current level of genesis hero
All class specialties (guilds) have 1 special that does the exact same amount of damage and takes the exact same amount of time to use as every other class or guild... the only thing different is how it looks
Does it sound boring yet?
No? Ok, no equipment in the game is any better than forged smith items, except for 5 unique items in the game.
Oh wait... this mud had color as part of the mudlib... so your combat could be color coded for different hits
Ok, my character is maxed, now what? Well no reason to grind... I can either A) kill other players B) try to find bugs/exploits C) socialize or D) find a new game. I chose the latter.
I know I am not the only one who has experienced this in the past...
I just say be careful of what you wish for.

Ugh ... sounds like a DikuMud ...

*shudder*


Actually it wouldn't be so bad, if it was more like Darkfall Online style. You swing a sword, you become stronger, you get hit, you become sturdier, you cast a spell, you become smarter. Skill growth based on what you use as well. Same spells, same abilities for everyone, grab one and start leveling. All kinds of mage/fighter/healer hybrids, etc!

So, you're up for a complete recode? :D


03 Oct 2017 22:03
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Wanderer

Joined: 30 Jun 2017 11:27
Posts: 58
I agree with Etanukar (that's also why I voted to keep it as is), I couldn't write it better.

Whole beauty of muds like this is diversity and imperfect balance.
What's the point of having different races if they develop (almost) the same way?

In that case this are not races, just "skins", you could as well sell racial costumes (even freeform - why can't I play "evil badz dragon" in that case?).

Some races are underrepresented in Genesis (I'm gnome - since I joined, I have seen maybe 2-3 other gnomes, although I play little), but that's the choice.
It's not my fault everyone want to be western beauty model (aka elf)

Also - you already have ability to change races (not every LP-based mud have it), so if you dislike your race - change it.

Remember that this is RPG, you don't have to be myth to roleplay, you don't have to be ultimate killing machine as well.
It's not about grinding, or leveling.
Otherwise we will end up with text-based WoW, Diablo or some other crappy mmo"rpg" they do now.
Which, I hope, will never happen to Genesis.


03 Oct 2017 22:09
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Great Adventurer

Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55
Posts: 159
Etanukar wrote:
As one who delved into other muds long ago before landing on Gen, part of the fun and draw of this game for me is the diversity of the races. Whats the flipside of all of this complaining? A standard playing field where the only thing different is the description. Some of you think that is utopian, but if you havent experienced what you request first hand, how can you have a concept of it?
Examples:
All races have the same attributes and stats - no differences at all.
All of the characters have the same cap on size, HP and mana... for sake of argument, lets call this the current level of genesis hero
All class specialties (guilds) have 1 special that does the exact same amount of damage and takes the exact same amount of time to use as every other class or guild... the only thing different is how it looks
Does it sound boring yet?
No? Ok, no equipment in the game is any better than forged smith items, except for 5 unique items in the game.
Oh wait... this mud had color as part of the mudlib... so your combat could be color coded for different hits
Ok, my character is maxed, now what? Well no reason to grind... I can either A) kill other players B) try to find bugs/exploits C) socialize or D) find a new game. I chose the latter.
I know I am not the only one who has experienced this in the past...
I just say be careful of what you wish for.


As someone who also took a break from Genesis for many years and played just about every popular and not so popular mud I could find I can tell you right now that you are forgetting to add some small details. No other game is set up the way Genesis is. Those other games with modifiers are more or less balanced through their EQ with requirements on them or a much less one-sided stat system. The games that are set up the way you say are boring and even are actually 10 times more focused on roleplay, guild politics, PvP or whatever ranking system the game has.

Personally, I think if everything is even its not only 10 times easier for balance but really lets players who are godly shine. I'll never be an amazing PvPer, just won't happen. However using you as an example I've had people in discord say that there are not many in the game that can compare with your quick thinking, planning and game knowledge when it comes to PvP. If you were to mirror yourself same guild, same layman, same size but the races were different. Who would win? Drow BDA Etan vs Goblin BDA Etan? Human MM Etan vs Elf/Orc MM Etan? If the Goblin you and Elf/Orc you win what is the purpose game wise for the Drow/Human version to be weaker? If you say roleplay then I'm going to ask in what Fantasy world is a Goblin going to beat a Drow with the same everything or in what version of Middle Earth are Orcs allowed to become Nazgul?

This is a game, it's not real life where we can say "Life isn't fair, deal with it" that doesn't cut it. Set everyone to human stats, keep the way we focus the same and let people be their own modifiers.


03 Oct 2017 22:52
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Myth

Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Posts: 1354
Location: Kristiansund, Norway
Ok let me be clear.
My idea of balance for races is the following.
When you add up all the modifiers and penalties for all the races, then divide by six.. You should get the same number.
Also get rid of the extremes of say Hobbit dex, Gnome int, goblin strength and con.. Dwarf strength con and dex.
Sure let there be a difference, but don't have them be as huge as they are.

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03 Oct 2017 23:27
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Great Adventurer
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Joined: 06 Mar 2010 14:39
Posts: 186
Location: Behind your back
Amberlee wrote:
Dwarf strength con and dex.


I love the two first as they are. (str con)
A little extra of the third (dex) wouldn't hurt. :)

I voted to keep the stats as they are.
I'm far to stubborn to like changes.

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04 Oct 2017 02:26
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Site Admin
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Posts: 2236
Location: Some old coffin
Amberlee wrote:
Ok let me be clear.
My idea of balance for races is the following.
When you add up all the modifiers and penalties for all the races, then divide by six.. You should get the same number.
Also get rid of the extremes of say Hobbit dex, Gnome int, goblin strength and con.. Dwarf strength con and dex.
Sure let there be a difference, but don't have them be as huge as they are.

Amberlee,

What you say here, so far as I can tell, represents the majority of complaint against the current system. The question I have is ... why do you feel this way? What is it about adding up all the race modifiers and then dividing by six that means anything meaningful to you? Are you saying that because some races get more than others by that metric that those races get a huge advantage in the game? We do not show numbers behind game mechanics or code, but here is the list of races in order of value when you take their racial modifiers and divide by six:

1. Gnome
2. Hobbit
3. Elf / Dwarf (tied)
4. Goblin
5. Human

Does anyone feel that the above list represents the problem? Everyone seems to think that goblins and dwarves are the ones who have the huge advantage in the game when it comes to combat (our main game activity). The above list has goblins ranked second WORST and dwarves tied for the middle slot. Gnomes and Hobbits are at the top. Does anyone believe to be a gnome or a hobbit gives you wild advantages in Genesis and makes the game unbalanced? Does a human (the worst on the list) need to run away when they face a hobbit in combat?

So, Amberlee, I am here to tell you that I think your concern that game imbalance is due to having inequality in the average of modifier divided by six is a complete delusion. You say "you shouold get the same number." Tell me ... why? Why should it add up to the same number when you divide by six? What does that accomplish? How does that solve the problem?

G.

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04 Oct 2017 16:08
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Great Adventurer

Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55
Posts: 159
gorboth wrote:
Amberlee wrote:
Ok let me be clear.
My idea of balance for races is the following.
When you add up all the modifiers and penalties for all the races, then divide by six.. You should get the same number.
Also get rid of the extremes of say Hobbit dex, Gnome int, goblin strength and con.. Dwarf strength con and dex.
Sure let there be a difference, but don't have them be as huge as they are.

Amberlee,

What you say here, so far as I can tell, represents the majority of complaint against the current system. The question I have is ... why do you feel this way? What is it about adding up all the race modifiers and then dividing by six that means anything meaningful to you? Are you saying that because some races get more than others by that metric that those races get a huge advantage in the game? We do not show numbers behind game mechanics or code, but here is the list of races in order of value when you take their racial modifiers and divide by six:

1. Gnome
2. Hobbit
3. Elf / Dwarf (tied)
4. Goblin
5. Human

Does anyone feel that the above list represents the problem? Everyone seems to think that goblins and dwarves are the ones who have the huge advantage in the game when it comes to combat (our main game activity). The above list has goblins ranked second WORST and dwarves tied for the middle slot. Gnomes and Hobbits are at the top. Does anyone believe to be a gnome or a hobbit gives you wild advantages in Genesis and makes the game unbalanced? Does a human (the worst on the list) need to run away when they face a hobbit in combat?

So, Amberlee, I am here to tell you that I think your concern that game imbalance is due to having inequality in the average of modifier divided by six is a complete delusion. You say "you shouold get the same number." Tell me ... why? Why should it add up to the same number when you divide by six? What does that accomplish? How does that solve the problem?

G.


I'm just guessing the number 6 is used because there are 6 stats, the idea behind that way of balance is basically what Kvator showed just he used different numbers. You have a set amount of points, doesn't matter what combination you use as long as all the races don't go beyond that amount. If you use that way and apply it to Genesis, some races have more points or less there is no even. The whole idea behind all of this is to make things even. Sure Goblins may be near the bottom of the list but you show me a fighters guild that Goblins join where Int/Dis is the main focus and i'll show you 12+ where Str/Dex/Con are more important.

The problem with using a system like that is that Genesis is not diverse enough in its guilds for a system like ours or like the above mentioned to work. The whole point of Modifiers is to force certain Races to play certain roles. Games that use modifiers have Warrior Races, Thief Races, Mage Races and Hybrid Races. Genesis has 12 Warrior Guilds or Guilds that use Strength as a main Stat for damage. 2 Thief Guilds or Guilds that use Dex as a main Stat, one of which is racially locked for Hobbits only and one that doesn't even allow them. 4 Mage Guilds and 1 Hybrid Guild that has been needing a recode for 10+ years.

And people want to be more diverse in what roles they can play. An Elf should be able to join a Warrior Guild other than SU and not get laughed at. A Hobbit should have more choices then Kender or Calians. A Gnome shouldn't be a red-headed stepchild of the game. If we're going to keep modifiers then do what most games do and keep it small and simple. -1 here, +1 there. Not +16 here with -2 to some worthless stat that you'll never use. Or +20 here and -15 here and -15 here on two important stats.


04 Oct 2017 17:39
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Rising Hero

Joined: 27 Jun 2011 13:20
Posts: 371
My 2cc... All races but one are pretty much balanced the way Amberlee describes, their total bonuses/penalties sum up roughly to the same figure. Except for human. My guess is... because you have to pay for versatility.


04 Oct 2017 18:57
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Myth

Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Posts: 1354
Location: Kristiansund, Norway
gorboth wrote:
So, Amberlee, I am here to tell you that I think your concern that game imbalance is due to having inequality in the average of modifier divided by six is a complete delusion. You say "you shouold get the same number." Tell me ... why? Why should it add up to the same number when you divide by six? What does that accomplish? How does that solve the problem?

G.


Some days I wonder if you are aware of what you are actually saying.

Now.. Why it should add up.
Because it is actually balanced?
Or do you mean it's fair that some races are more "powerful" than others?


BUT.
My main problems are this.
The HUGE differences in the modifiers which makes "alpha" races for certain guilds.

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The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.


04 Oct 2017 19:06
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