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Stat Modifiers - racial or otherwise ... 

Should stat-mods (race-based, or otherwise) stay or go?
Keep them - as they are is fine 28%  28%  [ 19 ]
Keep them - but change them! 51%  51%  [ 34 ]
Remove them - no mods plz! 21%  21%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 67

Stat Modifiers - racial or otherwise ... 
Author Message
Wizard

Joined: 24 Apr 2012 20:03
Posts: 57
Amberlee wrote:
gorboth wrote:
So, Amberlee, I am here to tell you that I think your concern that game imbalance is due to having inequality in the average of modifier divided by six is a complete delusion. You say "you shouold get the same number." Tell me ... why? Why should it add up to the same number when you divide by six? What does that accomplish? How does that solve the problem?

G.


Some days I wonder if you are aware of what you are actually saying.

Now.. Why it should add up.
Because it is actually balanced?
Or do you mean it's fair that some races are more "powerful" than others?


BUT.
My main problems are this.
The HUGE differences in the modifiers which makes "alpha" races for certain guilds.


I think what Gorboth is trying to say is pure mathematics:
Example some race have:
+30% +10% +30% -30% -10% -10%

And you are saying this is not sum up.
But how will it help if we change it to
+30% +10% +30% -30% -10% -30%

These are multipliers of base stat. So if main focus of character is STR it is still imbalanced.
Mathematically it is not that important if all coefficients sum up to the same value for all races.
Mathematically it makes no sense. I think that's what Gorboth meant.


04 Oct 2017 21:14
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Adept

Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55
Posts: 115
Boreaulam wrote:
Amberlee wrote:
gorboth wrote:
So, Amberlee, I am here to tell you that I think your concern that game imbalance is due to having inequality in the average of modifier divided by six is a complete delusion. You say "you shouold get the same number." Tell me ... why? Why should it add up to the same number when you divide by six? What does that accomplish? How does that solve the problem?

G.


Some days I wonder if you are aware of what you are actually saying.

Now.. Why it should add up.
Because it is actually balanced?
Or do you mean it's fair that some races are more "powerful" than others?


BUT.
My main problems are this.
The HUGE differences in the modifiers which makes "alpha" races for certain guilds.


I think what Gorboth is trying to say is pure mathematics:
Example some race have:
+30% +10% +30% -30% -10% -10%

And you are saying this is not sum up.
But how will it help if we change it to
+30% +10% +30% -30% -10% -30%

These are multipliers of base stat. So if main focus of character is STR it is still imbalanced.
Mathematically it is not that important if all coefficients sum up to the same value for all races.
Mathematically it makes no sense. I think that's what Gorboth meant.


Or just lower the number to a better % instead of +70% and -70% as you have listed change it to 40% and distribute it so no one race has the best physicals altogether or best mentals altogether. Remove the extremes.

-20% 0% -10% +20% +20% -10% - Gnomes are small in stature and not very strong, rather average when it comes to being nimble and not so hardy but very smart and wise while cowardly if push comes to shove. Nothing is super high and ridiculous, provides stats to make a great spellcaster while still giving slight debuffs to physicals.

Instead of the current standard...

-40% +40% -30% +60% 0% -20% - All over the place, enormous debuffs based off of the high stats of intelligence and dex (That was supposed to govern damage when this race was made)

Points, numbers, percentages it's all the same mould just how you go about adjusting that is different.

Use a point system

-2 0 -1 +2 +2 -1

Compared to

-4 +4 -3 +6 0 -2


Ones a flat rate, ones a % based but they both follow the same path and idea, people are over complicating this.

Quite frankly I'm still voting for the removal of all modifiers and letting the player choose. Easier to balance, races picked more for RP then Combat Ability and a lot more diversity. All races with human stats, modifiers based on what the player decides to focus. If they choose a primary and secondary of Int and Wis then make them also choose two stats for a primary and secondary debuff as well. If they choose physicals to raise at the same time mentals are lowered at that same rate. It's even, puts the choice in the players hand and promotes RP.


Last edited by Greneth on 04 Oct 2017 23:42, edited 1 time in total.



04 Oct 2017 23:01
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Amberlee wrote:
Some days I wonder if you are aware of what you are actually saying.

Right back at you, I think? Amberlee, you seem to be saying that the problem - the imbalance - is due to the fact that some races have more total points of boost when we take their individual mods and divide them by six (the number of stats.) Is that what you are saying is the problem? Because if that is what you are saying is the problem, then you seem confused. That arrangement would mean that a gnome and a hobbit have the advantage in Genesis over a goblin, dwarf, or a human because, as I explained before, gnomes and hobbits beat all the other races in terms of how the math averages out. Do they beat all the other races in balance and power? Do they?

So - let's be really clear here. I understand that it SEEMS fairer to make sure that no races get a higher score than other races when you average out their modifiers over the six stats. But this is absolutely not true at all. We could give one race a 6x multiplier in dis, making them have double the average modifiers of all other races. Would this make them a more powerful option in Genesis? Would this be unfair? No, not at all. It wouldn't help them much at all. So to argue that it is fairest and most balanced to make sure races all have the same average score in their mods is nonsense. That balances if all you mean by balance is that the numbers equal out. Balance in Genesis doesn't mean making sure the numbers are the same for all options, and I hope it never does.

Do I still seem to misunderstand my own statements? I ask for your help if I do, Sir. ;-)

G.

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04 Oct 2017 23:29
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Adept

Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55
Posts: 115
gorboth wrote:

So - let's be really clear here. I understand that it SEEMS fairer to make sure that no races get a higher score than other races when you average out their modifiers over the six stats. But this is absolutely not true at all. We could give one race a 6x multiplier in dis, making them have double the average modifiers of all other races. Would this make them a more powerful option in Genesis? Would this be unfair? No, not at all. It wouldn't help them much at all. So to argue that it is fairest and most balanced to make sure races all have the same average score in their mods is nonsense. That balances if all you mean by balance is that the numbers equal out. Balance in Genesis doesn't mean making sure the numbers are the same for all options, and I hope it never does.


G.


To be fair if you changed dis to str then I would have to argue that yes it probably would be unfair. For years and years when it comes to guild balance multiple wizards, even you have said "The numbers all add up" and use that as a cure-all for worries, whines, and complaints. (Anyone remember this infamous saying with AA?) To say the numbers don't equal balance now is a bit odd really. The idea behind having equal numbers is so that there is no "Well I FEEL this is balanced" there is no assumption or guessing no matter how good or on point it is. It's a flat rate that leaves no question as to what is fair and equal.

Perhaps I just don't have the knowledge to understand how that balance works but what example could you give that would justify race A getting 40% in total modifiers and race B getting 60%? Why does race B NEED to have 20% more?


05 Oct 2017 08:17
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Wanderer
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Joined: 07 Oct 2015 17:38
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Location: Gorlovka
This is a technical discussion and as such I don't have much to say in it, but the little I do want to say is the following: The ideal would be to be able to play a race that fits the role of your character's story in regards to backstory, guilds, and such., without taking lore into account since Genesis has many incompatible ones coexisting, or having to suffer the case of, pardon the hyperbole, non-viability due to modifiers.

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05 Oct 2017 09:47
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Adept
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Joined: 29 Jul 2010 15:29
Posts: 126
Location: China
If the divide by six stat issue is a red herring, it would seem the issue is more how stats affect combat. If you also factor in guild specials being affected by stats, we have a very complicated issue. Balancing all the guilds again isn't feasibly going to happen, especially since some guilds haven't been re-coded to the "new"er mechanics.

What is the main root issue? Strength is king for combat guilds (most guilds)? You need to be goblin for maximum output? I think most people's problem is this perception that goblins will beat everyone else.

Fact is, goblins are good in all three stats that matter for melee guilds - str, dex, con. Do I really care? Not much, but practically speaking I can see why some would. I've been a Kender Calian for some years now and some people tell me I'm limiting myself by not being a goblin (like I used to be). Many have said dexterity used to be the most important stat for combat but now strength affects "white hits" most. I have really high dexterity, but I still get hit and I still miss hits. It's hard for me to say how much really high dexterity helps my character compared to if I were a goblin. Having said that, I think the best combat damage I've witnessed has come from an elf, so matching guild and stat-knowledge really matters. I don't think that's going to change or that I would want that to change since, as has been noted on this thread, that would be really boring. I like goblins as killing machines and dwarves as tanks, and I like being a kender for kender's sake, but if I want I can choose to become a goblin again and that would apparently be optimal if I want to be a power-player.

I've never been in an occupational magic guild, but if gnomes have the highest stat-average, the clear issue to me is that intelligence isn't very useful, kind of like discipline. If wisdom affects mana-regen (as does spellcraft skill), wisdom is a much more sensible stat to focus on for a caster who wants to keep grinding. Intelligence would be useful for maximizing burst damage / healing but if mana regen is fast (and with the new magic system coded guilds it is quite fast), who cares about intelligence? I know I don't. If some people do, then where are they? Makes me wonder, can Gorboth post stats on the races of active players?

Based on empirical evidence and chatter about strength, I would be inclined to say make dexterity and discipline (maybe intelligence) more of a factor in these "white hits" and maybe you have something that balances races more among melee guilds. A simple modification, as has been done in the past, may be the best solution to what is the perceived problem of the need to go goblin. It would have to be tested thoroughly by the balance team before implemented. Maybe do something like the month we had with no experience loss from death but with a proposed stat-modifier change to test the real world affects and get player feedback.

Logical solutions to our ambiguous "problem":
1) Making more stats matter in "white hits". Everyone gives white hits. This would also fix the discipline issue being tossed around.
2) Somewhat diminishing the extreme nature of stat-modifiers in some, if not all, races. e.g. - goblins become less strong and more brainy, hobbits less dexterous and more strong, dwarves less sturdy and more dexterous, gnomes less intelligent and more SOMETHING, etc.
Sidenote - If some races are heavily modified for less meaningful stats (hobbits, gnomes) maybe they rightly SHOULD have higher stat-averages. But if more stats mattered, you could also divide evenly by six.

Would one of these make the players more happy? Would it create more race diversity? There will never be a perfect fix in this complicated game. We have more magic guilds opening up which I think will help. Also would be nice if some benevolent wizard would take on the ranger and minstrel re-code to the new magic system. End rant.


05 Oct 2017 19:56
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Habiki: A+!

Please form a study group and help your class. ;-)

G.

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05 Oct 2017 21:08
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Wanderer

Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34
Posts: 73
The bonuses should be even in terms of power..

And they ought to be smaller than now.

If gobbos get +20% in str and con, and -20% in int and dis... then those bonuses should be at least halved, if not more.
I would say quartered, which should just count for ALL bonuses to all races.

Then those huge differences would be gone, but races are still different.


05 Oct 2017 22:19
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Wizard
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Joined: 03 Mar 2014 13:03
Posts: 127
Location: US West
I've been reading this thread over the last couple of weeks and trying to decide what I can contribute to the conversation that isn't just ignorant or inflammatory. From what I understand, this is a multi-faceted issue may require changes in multiple areas to bring about a solution. I don't know if anything below is new or unique, but I want to join the discussion.

This thread started as a poll about racial modifiers, but I can think of at least three things that all relate to the discussion and influence my vote:

    1. The stat modifiers are only part of what make the races different and contribute to balance. In Gorboth's hierarchy of average race modifiers, humans are listed at the bottom. I don't think this is a surprise to most people. I have played several characters (5 that I can remember) over the last ~15 years and this time around, for the first time ever, I made a human. I knew that humans were not great at any one thing, and that was exactly why I chose a human. I wanted versatility. I wanted to be able to choose my guilds, travel the realms, and freely complete quests with minimal issues. Ultimately, I had to choose to give up this versatility when I did a race change. I couldn't change races until I made the most of my human time by doing all of the quests that would not be available to my future race. I used the human advantage before switching. My point? Humans are lower on stats because they derive non-stat benefits for their race. This is not the only race to receive non-stat advantages but was the first that came to mind and the most relatable and obvious to list.

    2. The difference in stats is most obvious in combat. Stat modifiers have little-to-no influence on the non-combat aspects of the game (questing, roleplay, social gaming, guild politics, etc). This leads to a very clear advantage for some races in combat based on their guild and/or damage type. As it has been noted before, at some point a character HAS to farm/grind combat xp in order to grow and that becomes the focus of the game. In this way, it IS unfair that some races have advantages over others.

    3. Not only are the races currently unequal, but so are the stats themselves. If given a choice, every tank would tank 1 unit of Con over 1 (probably 2) units of Int. Every fighter would take 2 units to use in Str/Dex over 3-4 units to be used in Int/Wis. Without seeing the numbers, it is hard to assign a value to each stat, but the imbuements reflect the importance of some stats over others - not all stats are created equal. This leads me to believe that it is NOT important for all races to have the same total modifiers because each of those modifiers has a different "market value." In order to balance this,
    the race modifiers could be shifted so that all races are about equal based on the market value of the stats that are modified, OR the stats/combat system can be changed so that (for example) the uses for dex (in combat) can be increased so that halflings don't feel completely screwed at everything because their dex is high but not used for anything.
    Note: In the end, this still would lead to pigeon-holing certain roles based on race (no goblin magic users, no gnome tanks, etc)

I don't think the current imbalance will be saved with a single change to everyone's race modifiers. If any change occurs I expect plenty of tweaks and adjustments and a fair amount more discussion. Additionally, I think the Discipline discussion is MORE important than this one because it can lead to having stats reworked or value added back to certain stats in how they contribute to standard attacks and guild specials.


I wish I could come up with a TL;DR but I am super tired and also very full of myself so I think the whole thing is worth reading.

Sincerely,
~Shanoga


06 Oct 2017 06:44
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Myth

Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Posts: 1309
Location: Kristiansund, Norway
gorboth wrote:
Habiki: A+!

Please form a study group and help your class. ;-)

G.



No.
And here is why.
Also I know this is a concept that has been hard for you lot to understand in the past.
Balance isn't a feeling and it isn't an opinion.
The core of what I have been saying all along is this.
1. Get rid of the extreme differences.
2. Even out the total modifiers and penalties so they in the end have the same sum total.

You point at other posts and applaud something completely different than what I am even discussing and saying 'He understands.. look at that!', something that kinda makes you the Hillary Clinton of debate, chasing celebrity endorsements while offering no palpable change.

So I am still waiting for an argument where you address these things.
With your own words and not echoing someone else.

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06 Oct 2017 11:33
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