Genesis Forums

Amberlee wrote:
The core of what I have been saying all along is this.
1. Get rid of the extreme differences.
2. Even out the total modifiers and penalties so they in the end have the same sum total.

You're arguing for mathematical, objective balance, right? But what Habiki and I think others have been saying is mathematical equality is meaningless if the stats themselves do not give equal "value". An equalized goblin and a hobbit, both giving an average of 6 in overall +/- doesn't make them equal when the goblin's strength and con have much more usefulness in the current Genesis combat system.

Yes, objectivity is excellent, but you have to consider the real value of the stats as they function in the mechanics of the game. Either the combat/magic mechanics need to be adjusted to give equal usefulness to all stats (which would allow your idea of equal sum total of +/-), or the stat modifiers need to be equal in terms of the value they represent in the current system.

Tindell wrote:

Amberlee wrote:
The core of what I have been saying all along is this.
1. Get rid of the extreme differences.
2. Even out the total modifiers and penalties so they in the end have the same sum total.

You're arguing for mathematical, objective balance, right? But what Habiki and I think others have been saying is mathematical equality is meaningless if the stats themselves do not give equal "value". An equalized goblin and a hobbit, both giving an average of 6 in overall +/- doesn't make them equal when the goblin's strength and con have much more usefulness in the current Genesis combat system.

Yes, objectivity is excellent, but you have to consider the real value of the stats as they function in the mechanics of the game. Either the combat/magic mechanics need to be adjusted to give equal usefulness to all stats (which would allow your idea of equal sum total of +/-), or the stat modifiers need to be equal in terms of the value they represent in the current system.

You left out a third option:
The best way to fix racial modifiers will also require a fix to guild abilities afterwards.

Just because something else will also require a fix, does not mean that what Amberlee proposes could not be the best way to fix racial modifiers.

I am sorry if this makes no sense, just popped to my head so please dismiss me with kindness

Extremes on stat +/- are easily adored by all of us, you want a fighter with combat stats so you pick a race with good combat stats etc. Now that's an issue for many reasons which I guess I don't have to reproduce.

What if we kept a big amount of +/- but incorporate part of it in guilds in terms of bonuses? If current bonuses/minuses are 1/2/3 then
race bonus/minus could be +-1 and guild another +-1. (I am thinking occupational mainly, but probably race and layman could give 0.5 type of bonus/minus as well. Craft is something of a lifestyle choice, could stay untouched) Makes sense RP-wise since you train in more speicific areas and, gameplay wise, helps a character progress according to his/her actual needs as well.

• SoHM? +wis + int
• RDA? + str + dis
• KoS? + str + dis
• Ranger? +dex +wis
• Monk? +dex +wis/str

This would make people insta pick goblin a bit less to fight better since the goblin-specific bonus is just less significant while the overall prowess will eventually come from joining a fighting guild.
Also, breaking down the issue should make balancing easier since you can target buff(!) and/or nerf the real troublemaker, be it race or guild.

Makfly wrote: The best way to fix racial modifiers will also require a fix to guild abilities afterwards.

Damn right, and it should better be released together.

Drazson wrote:I am sorry if this makes no sense, just popped to my head so please dismiss me with kindness

Extremes on stat +/- are easily adored by all of us, you want a fighter with combat stats so you pick a race with good combat stats etc. Now that's an issue for many reasons which I guess I don't have to reproduce.

What if we kept a big amount of +/- but incorporate part of it in guilds in terms of bonuses? If current bonuses/minuses are 1/2/3 then
race bonus/minus could be +-1 and guild another +-1. (I am thinking occupational mainly, but probably race and layman could give 0.5 type of bonus/minus as well. Craft is something of a lifestyle choice, could stay untouched) Makes sense RP-wise since you train in more speicific areas and, gameplay wise, helps a character progress according to his/her actual needs as well.

• SoHM? +wis + int
• RDA? + str + dis
• KoS? + str + dis
• Ranger? +dex +wis
• Monk? +dex +wis/str

This would make people insta pick goblin a bit less to fight better since the goblin-specific bonus is just less significant while the overall prowess will eventually come from joining a fighting guild.
Also, breaking down the issue should make balancing easier since you can target buff(!) and/or nerf the real troublemaker, be it race or guild.

Drazson, Arman has proposed something very similar to this, in fact! Stay tuned ...

Amberlee ... I have no idea what you are actually trying to accomplish. Celebrity endorsements? Hillary Clinton? *confused* As I too often see from you, you seem to just be on the "tear down the person who disagrees with you by insulting them as a person rather than deal with what they actually said" approach. Lame and worthless!

A lot of people seem to understand what I've been trying to point out to you - creating numeric symmetry is completely meaningless because some stats are much more valuable in gameplay value than others. So - why do you keep asking for it? I agree with you that balance is more than a feeling. You seem to feel that making sure we have numeric symmetry will make things more balanced. It won't.

G.

Drazson wrote:I am sorry if this makes no sense, just popped to my head so please dismiss me with kindness

Extremes on stat +/- are easily adored by all of us, you want a fighter with combat stats so you pick a race with good combat stats etc. Now that's an issue for many reasons which I guess I don't have to reproduce.

What if we kept a big amount of +/- but incorporate part of it in guilds in terms of bonuses? If current bonuses/minuses are 1/2/3 then
race bonus/minus could be +-1 and guild another +-1. (I am thinking occupational mainly, but probably race and layman could give 0.5 type of bonus/minus as well. Craft is something of a lifestyle choice, could stay untouched) Makes sense RP-wise since you train in more speicific areas and, gameplay wise, helps a character progress according to his/her actual needs as well.

• SoHM? +wis + int
• RDA? + str + dis
• KoS? + str + dis
• Ranger? +dex +wis
• Monk? +dex +wis/str

This would make people insta pick goblin a bit less to fight better since the goblin-specific bonus is just less significant while the overall prowess will eventually come from joining a fighting guild.
Also, breaking down the issue should make balancing easier since you can target buff(!) and/or nerf the real troublemaker, be it race or guild.

I'm a proponent of this sort of model, where your race AND guild classes (note class) impact your stat modifiers. In my mind, why can't a human be as strong or stronger than a base goblin like Conan the Barbarian or Wolfgar of Icewind Dale? Or why a goblin shaman can't be more cunning that a dwarven or human fighter?

Anyway, I think we can be smarter in how we apply our stat modifiers and allow players more versatility and choice within their races, and add a new meta where guild style choices and combinations can be just as influential.

Arman wrote:[...] guild classes (note class) impact your stat modifiers[...]

Classes like Fighters/Mages/Clerics/Thieves instead of guild specific, you mean? Sounds cool. However, that "impact" would be (in total after you add up race/class/whatever else) lower or same?

Drazson wrote:

Arman wrote:[...] guild classes (note class) impact your stat modifiers[...]

Classes like Fighters/Mages/Clerics/Thieves instead of guild specific, you mean? Sounds cool. However, that "impact" would be (in total after you add up race/class/whatever else) lower or same?

Yeah... all occ and lay guilds fall within one of five classes... fighter, mage, cleric, thief, ranger.

When you say impact being lower or the same, what do you mean? As what we have now??

Wondering if the total stat modifier for each stat will be on the scale of -3/-2/-1/no change/+1/+2/+3 or whether there are thoughts for it to be less wide [from -2 to +2 for example]. That's probably secondary though.

Arman wrote:

Drazson wrote:I am sorry if this makes no sense, just popped to my head so please dismiss me with kindness

Extremes on stat +/- are easily adored by all of us, you want a fighter with combat stats so you pick a race with good combat stats etc. Now that's an issue for many reasons which I guess I don't have to reproduce.

What if we kept a big amount of +/- but incorporate part of it in guilds in terms of bonuses? If current bonuses/minuses are 1/2/3 then
race bonus/minus could be +-1 and guild another +-1. (I am thinking occupational mainly, but probably race and layman could give 0.5 type of bonus/minus as well. Craft is something of a lifestyle choice, could stay untouched) Makes sense RP-wise since you train in more speicific areas and, gameplay wise, helps a character progress according to his/her actual needs as well.

• SoHM? +wis + int
• RDA? + str + dis
• KoS? + str + dis
• Ranger? +dex +wis
• Monk? +dex +wis/str

This would make people insta pick goblin a bit less to fight better since the goblin-specific bonus is just less significant while the overall prowess will eventually come from joining a fighting guild.
Also, breaking down the issue should make balancing easier since you can target buff(!) and/or nerf the real troublemaker, be it race or guild.

I'm a proponent of this sort of model, where your race AND guild classes (note class) impact your stat modifiers. In my mind, why can't a human be as strong or stronger than a base goblin like Conan the Barbarian or Wolfgar of Icewind Dale? Or why a goblin shaman can't be more cunning that a dwarven or human fighter?

Anyway, I think we can be smarter in how we apply our stat modifiers and allow players more versatility and choice within their races, and add a new meta where guild style choices and combinations can be just as influential.

Most reassuring thing I've read in this whole thread.