Problems if we get too many newbies

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Kitriana
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Kitriana » 30 Aug 2018 11:34

The biggest and most common complaint I see on reddit about Genesis from ppl who have tried it is that they lose gear on log out.
They don't understand why an RP immersive environment doesn't place a value on maintaing the gear you have acquired.
My explanations to them of why it is that way are still not appealing to them -- bottom line that is a real deal killer for most.
If something I wrote sounds confusing ... assume you misunderstood it.

Nerull
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Nerull » 30 Aug 2018 12:34

Perhaps some newbie gear, or gear below a certain level of power should on default save. It's understandable that this actually drive people from the game since this is today a norm in about every MMO/online out there.

Nonmagical regular smith or shop items (weapons/armors). Any weapon/armor with the magical prop should not autosave.

Perhaps such gear could degrade quicker to ensure moneysink/recycling of gear, aka your typical Minecraft sword?

Thoughts?

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Dhez
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Dhez » 30 Aug 2018 13:44

There was a discussion not long ago about making non magical equipment save. Supposed RP shouldn't be an excuse and isn't really the reason why equipment doesn't save.
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Boreaulam
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Boreaulam » 30 Aug 2018 17:20

Perhaps to make LD period - 12/24 hours.

So equipment saves only if you play. if you don't... share with others.

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Cherek
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Cherek » 01 Sep 2018 21:00

Dhez wrote:There was a discussion not long ago about making non magical equipment save. Supposed RP shouldn't be an excuse and isn't really the reason why equipment doesn't save.
Yeah, we had a forum vote about it where the large majority of all players thought it was a good idea. I too think it's a great idea and would be the one thing we could do that would have the biggest chance of increasing the number of players we keep. Now, some potential concerns were also raised in that thread, and it's also the whole debate about if we should change such a "core" thing about Genesis.

In my opinion I don't think it would be such a huge change though. Most of the good equipment in the game is magical, and will work just as before. Also, we could of course tweak some items and add magical properties if we notice something non-magical that is "too good", but I doubt there's many of those.

It would also make it so much easier to explaining how stuff saves, since now it's very confusing to try to explain it to new players. We could simply make all non-magical items glow forever (until they break), and the magical items do not. That makes it much simpler for newbies to understand how it works. Just type "save" and then you'll know.

Today it makes little sense, as when a new player types "save" they'll notice some random stuff that glows,and there is no logic to what glows and what doesn't. And even the stuff that glows will just cause frustration the next time they play, as they will assume that item saves the next time they quit too. But the next time they quit, the item is lost, since they only save once. Confusion = maximum.

As AoP I don't know how many mails I got from players who asked to get their stuff restored since they were lost due to a bug, and I had to try to explain our confusing EQ saving system.

I think stuff should either save when you quit, or not save when you quit, and it should be a logical reason for it. Much simpler, much better, and very easy to explain. Magical = does not save. Non-magical = saves. Typ "save" to see which items will save and which wont. Makes sense, and is easy to understand. Win-win.

But wait, what about if we want to make magical items save over armageddon? Well, either we change it so they just don't. Or, we keep things as they are but give them a "faint glow", meaning they save over one armageddon (but never when you quit).

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gorboth
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by gorboth » 01 Sep 2018 23:52

So, Cherek, in making it simpler like this, are you advocating that magic items would be switched so that they NEVER save? Meaning, we do away with the glowing mechanic entirely?

I am not sure how popular it would be for us to make magic items never glow. Or ... maybe I'm wrong?

G.
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Cherek
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Cherek » 02 Sep 2018 01:03

gorboth wrote:So, Cherek, in making it simpler like this, are you advocating that magic items would be switched so that they NEVER save? Meaning, we do away with the glowing mechanic entirely?

I am not sure how popular it would be for us to make magic items never glow. Or ... maybe I'm wrong?

G.
Well you could make it so they never glow, but I think my other option is better. That, is magic items can still save over Armageddon just like they do now. But only over Armageddon - once. They never save when you _quit_. That is the confusing part now, and is only ever used by newbies who don't know better. Right now these items save once when you quit, and then lose their saving properties. Thich is both a confusing feature for new players, and a frustrating thing for old players who accidentally quit with something glowing on them, and mess it up so it won't save over Armageddon instead.

I think magic items should still have the same randomness whether if they save over Armageddon or not, but perhaps we should simply adjust the "glow" thing so it's not confused with the forever glowing non-magic items. Below is my suggestion.

This is what happens when you type "save":

Herbs, gems, spell components, food, etc
They GLOW, meaning they save when you quit, and they also save over Armageddon, forever. So, just like it is now, but remove the three months limit on these items (if it's still in place?) That limit does nothing good anyway. I can't remember if Mercade removed it completely or just made it a very long limit though. but we should check that to make sure they save forever.

All your NON-MAGICAL items
They GLOW, meaning they save when you quit, and they also save over Armageddon, forever, until the break of course. Then they stop saving.

Your MAGICAL items that save over Armageddon
They have a FAINT GLOW, meaning they will NOT save when you quit, but they will save over Armageddon. (These are the magical items that glow today and have the "it looks like it will last a while"-message in their description)

Your MAGICAL items that do not save over Armageddon
They FAIL TO GLOW, just like today. Meaning they will NOT save when you quit and will NOT save over Armageddon.

So magical items stay exactly the same as now, except they will never save when you quit, and we now differentiate between stuff that saves when you quit, and stuff that saves over Armageddon.

So it would look something like this:

Code: Select all

Saving Cherek.
A soft leather backpack (open), 14 small red berries, a sharp sword, a wooden buckler, and a brown leather armour glow briefly.
A blue dragonscale armour emits a faint glow.
An ancient mithril chainmail fails to glow.
This makes it very easy to see what saves when you quit, what saves over Armageddon only, and what does not save at all. It's also easy to explain in help files and when new players ask. And it makes perfect sense gamedesign-wise. You can get decent stuff to keep forever, but the really good stuff has more limits and drawbacks. Exactly like you would expect. So, people aren't likely to complain as much about this approach, and even if someone dislikes it, the new players wont get exposed to magical stuff until later in the game anyway, so it won't be an issue until they're hooked anyway.

And, from a story viewpoint it's also logical. Common stuff that are in abundance can be kept forever, while the more rare magical items and the energies within are more fragile and won't last when you enter the void (when you quit), but they have a chance of surviving Armageddon once, but then they become too fragile to survive again.

I think this would work really well and be good for both new and old players, without messing too much with the Genesis core, rack systems, etc. Actually I think it'll make it better. Many racks are already overflowing with semi-decent stuff, better if they only contain magical items and people can keep whatever non-magical stuff they need on their person instead.

The only potential problem could be imbues. They must of course be treated as magical items, which also make sense. So, I suspect that once an item is imbued it should get a faint glow or no glow, just like normal magical items. Unless you prefer to make imbues never-saving. That could also work, but might not be something players will be happy about. On the other hand, one could perhaps upgrade the spawn-rate again to compensate. Either way, there are several ways to make imbues work in this system.

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Mim
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Mim » 02 Sep 2018 08:57

Saving nonmagical items would have a tremendous impact on the imbuesystem, would it not?
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Thalric
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Thalric » 02 Sep 2018 10:33

An imbued item is per definition magical. So I don't think so.

Thalric
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Thalric » 02 Sep 2018 10:36

What about all these auto-saving racks?

Won't they eventually be filled up with thousands of non-magical items that just keep growing in numbers?
Imagine how the Cadet racks will look in a year or two...

I would think that non-magical items should ONLY save ALWAYS when held by someone, and not if stored in a rack. That way we get things cleared up now and again.
Also, there are items that are REALLY good, but are not magical.

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