Problems if we get too many newbies

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Arman
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Arman » 04 Sep 2018 01:30

gorboth wrote:I'm starting to like the concept that anything you wield/wear will save and that things degrade faster.

This really is a puzzle, though. Lots of issues to think through.

G.
I like the concept. Although we will need to audit non-decaying items and think about what place they have in the game... but also how the repair system should work.

Having said that, we can probably still implement the wield/wear saving while unpacking the rest?

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Drazson
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Drazson » 04 Sep 2018 09:24

It seems like it. Maybe add something akin to that offline degration idea posted here. If people have a system to come back after some hours, go repair and logout again to keep an item around then they can already do the same but easier, by making sure they stay awake all the time wearing the items. Sounds like an overall improvement that isn't exploitable, at least any more than the current system is.

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gorboth
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by gorboth » 04 Sep 2018 10:07

Code: Select all

                  Saving Gear - Issue Complexities
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      - Gorboth, Aug. 2018 -

Reasons not to change anything:

    - Genesis has a long tradition that gear does not save.
        * Old players have grown up with this, and it "feels" right
          for some because of that.
        * 20 years of game design has assumed that gear does not
          save. 
    - Gear is easy to get.
        * It is very easy to find npcs you can kill that will give
          you reasonably good gear.
        * It is very easy to buy/order reasonably good gear.
        * It is very easy to find gear left on the ground by players
          who chose not to look their kills.
    - Genesis needs challenges, and hunting for gear each login is
      one of the long-standing challenges the game offers.

Reasons to change things:

    - We have reason to believe that many prospective players have
      decided to quit when they learn that gear does not save.
        * Like it or not, modern expectations by gamers may not be
          compatible with our long-standing traditions of non-saving
          gear.
        * If we are losing a significant number of prospective
          players because of this, there is no choice but to make
          changes. We would be insane not to.
    - Advanced players also have called for change.
        * Many complain of rack looters.
        * Many complain of disappointingly brief opportunities to
          enjoy imbuement stones they spend which may represent
          months of planning to use.
        * Many just (think they) want an easier game with less
          challenge to begin grinding. This is a potentially dubious
          rationale, however.
    - The current system is complicated and difficult to explain to
      new players who want to understand how it works.

Possible New Design: Saving via gear-slots and racks:

    1. Saving functionality:
        - Nothing glows anymore.
        - Anything you wear/wield is saved until it breaks.
        - Anything placed in a guild rack is saved.
        - Non-autosave inventory items will no longer save
          unless they are worn/wielded.

    2. Gear duration functionality:
        - All unbreakable items in the game are changed to become
          breakable.
        - Item-repair is added to the game, both for npc smiths
          and for craft-guild smith players.
        - Items can be broken and repaired three times. Each time
          the cost (npc) or skill (player) needed for the repair
          becomes higher.
            * 1st repair: 10 plats (low smith skill)
            * 2nd repair: 25 plats (medium smith skill)
            * 3rd repair: 50 plats (max smith skill)
        - Items do not degrade on their own (rust/corrode/etc)

    3. Gear protection functionality:
        - Worn/wielded items cannot be stolen.
        - Player abilities cannot force dropping of worn or
          wielded gear.
        - Player abilities cannot damage worn/wielded gear.


  How this plays out - 

    - Players now consider gear in Genesis the way they consider
      gear in most modern games. You treasure your gear and
      carefully collect it to "spec" your character the way you
      want.

    - However, gear is not permenant. It will eventually break
      enough times to be beyond repair. As such, gear acquisition
      is still very important. Likewise, you will always be on the
      lookout for something that is better than your current
      loadout.

    - Imbuements become something you can enjoy for a nice long
      time.

    - Guild racks become less important, and therefore rack-thieves
      become less ruinous to the game experience.

    - Things you do not wield/wear will no longer glow, and will not
      be things you can save. So, if you need to quit or an
      Armageddon comes, you must very *carefully* choose what you want
      to save by wearing it and wielding it.

    - Players would now be allowed to idle with any gear they want
      wielded/worn.

    - Guild abilities throughout the game will need to be modified
      or removed if they violate player gear. No breaking or
      forced drops. No stealing. Player gear is sacred.
My thought process on this so far. This is not a declaration of any admin decisions - merely me sharing what came to me as I worked on the problem. I think it might work. Comments welcome.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Thalric
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Thalric » 04 Sep 2018 10:54

Why would item or guild abilities to break equipment stop working?
Having those weapons or abilities would become higher in demand.
It is also now a thing to consider when fighting said mobs.

You don't wear your best stuff when fighting Ashburz with a maul.
You don't wield your super weapons when fighting dark kroug or goblin lord.

Removing these abilities sound.. a waste of time to change.

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Drazson
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Drazson » 04 Sep 2018 11:25

At work now, some thoughts that popped up reading this:

1. Item repair for smiths is cool, but would still need a forge (unlike sharpening I mean). Maybe install forges in places where it's appropriate?
2. It's not clear to me: Is repairing a broken item free for smiths (just go to a forge and do it yourself if you have the skill) while it costs 10-20-50pt for anyone else? Do both costs exist, thus needing to pay the costs AND have a skilled repair the item for you (or do it yourself as a blacksmith of course)?
3. I guess worn equipment means backpacks as well. What about the contents? Each item will have a "save-able" boolean and it's kept as long as it's either worn, wielded, or in a worn container?
4. Will the balance of utility between blacksmiths and herbalists be broken? (mariners are a lost cause I guess :D )
5. As a ranger, disabling disarm doesn't trouble me too much since the guild is broken anyway. In general, though, maybe it's a bad idea to disable various combat moves that may come up as ideas for current or future guilds even relating to enemies' weapons and armours. We could make such moves work only during combat or something. Thieves should be able to steal something as well, maybe they can do it while the target is distracted within combat or otherwise? They'll be left without a craft to practice if they can't steal! We should definitely come up with consolations to those cases or any other that I'm missing.
6. Permanent items, what of them? I have to hold the staff of Aeria to save it instead of my weapon or shield? They could have their own 'slots' that don't interfere with other items, slots being enabled only when you gain the respective items. Something like back sheathe for the staff, belt hang for the arraw horn and whatnot.
7. General notion: Racks will probably become more... genuine. People will actually put stuff there because they want to share, not because they have to. My guilds in both skins would still have their racks full, I believe. For other guilds like Mercenaries or others that won't be the case maybe, but that will only be depicting reality which can naturally evolve from there.

I skipped too much work :)

Thalric
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Thalric » 04 Sep 2018 11:50

Wouldn't these changes mean that people who are never attacked/hit would have the ability to keep armours forever?

So they could have intense imbuements on all items that would never break?

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Drazson
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Drazson » 04 Sep 2018 12:02

Interesting. You mean backliners I assume. If armour imbues are defensive and utilitarian while weapon imbues are offensive, this could work, since their imbues would actually not provide them any bonuses so it's fair. Big change though I guess.

Rangar
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Rangar » 04 Sep 2018 13:52

Why not include a hard limit on item survivability, in that after 28 calendar days after they were first cloned, they expire? This way no item would survive more than 2 regular Armageddons, while guaranteeing close to a month of usability, if they remain otherwise undamaged?

Also, on removing specials that break or damage or drop items - I believe they should stay in game (they add to the depth of tactics and strategy), with perhaps the caveat that items are dropped to the player's inventory instead of to the ground, if the player is successfully disarmed?

Anfalas
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Anfalas » 04 Sep 2018 14:08

A lot of great ideas brought up. I think they're all going in the right direction. I'd focus on the main challenge at hand though and try to keep it as simple as possible without major changes. With some of the major changes being suggested, there will be a lot of unintended consequences. That will also likely require a lot of work to implement and/or fix.

The issue is new players losing gear on logout. Vast majority of that gear is non-magical. Make non-magical items being wielded/worn save (for now). Tweak the few non-magical items that really are magical. Keep the rest of the system the way it is (for now).

I'd continue to work on different thoughts/ideas/concepts on how to improve the overall handling of items for everyone though. Start simple, and keep adding/changing things slowly as we go along. I really like the idea of being able to keep the things we wield/wear at all times. However, as we can see with a lot of the rebuttals there are instantly a lot of reasons that make it a concern. What about character pack mules? I know in several games I've ran out of inventory/bank space on my main and created an alt simply to store more crap. ;) While I know this is simply against the Genesis rules. That ultimately just adds more work to the AoP team to monitor.

Rangar
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Rangar » 04 Sep 2018 14:19

Anfalas wrote: ... I really like the idea of being able to keep the things we wield/wear at all times. However, as we can see with a lot of the rebuttals there are instantly a lot of reasons that make it a concern. What about character pack mules? I know in several games I've ran out of inventory/bank space on my main and created an alt simply to store more crap. ;) While I know this is simply against the Genesis rules. That ultimately just adds more work to the AoP team to monitor.
Why not Bind on Equip restricted to registered seconds only? If Rangar gets a cool magic item and equips it, and then gives it to RangarEqStorage for safekeeping, RangarEqStorage can't equip it, so it won't save. Rangar puts the item in the rack - guildmates can use it, and so can he when he logs back. And having unregistered seconds is illegal, so grounds for deletion if Rangar gives an item to TotallyNotRangar for storage. ;)

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