Problems if we get too many newbies

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Nerull
Wizard
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Nerull » 04 Sep 2018 15:20

I guess specials and spells that break/drop/ weapons and armors needs to go, maybe being replaced with a modern "disarm" effect instead which is supported by the new spell/special library.

"Disarm" means you make the enemy unable to wield the weapon for x seconds (one arm, both arms etc), but he doesn't drop it from inventory.

Draugor
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Draugor » 04 Sep 2018 15:52

Saving untill it breaks is an aswesome idea if you remove the non breaking items ofc, that would be... insane? Neverbreaking GT or Mithril lance is kinda OP xD And Lance never breaks on undeads so :P Samve with HSC etc, alltho Ogre weapons can never save can they? Or should we make the expensive sledgehammers breakable? Doesent seem fair unless the price is lowered ofc.

sylphan
Great Adventurer
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by sylphan » 04 Sep 2018 16:01

I agree with Anfalas that first changes should be directed at the immediate issue. I also don't see any reason to change specials that force someone to drop an item or that break armours.

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Cherek
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Cherek » 05 Sep 2018 01:32

What I like about "my" idea (which actually isn't mine at all, I think Varian presented it on the forums first) is that it's (in theory) simple to implement, easy to explain, and not likely to mess up a lot of core Genesis stuff. It also has few drawbacks that I can think of. The big drawback is however that's it's not a complete solution. It kind of postpones the problem until later in the game, when players (hopefully) are more willing to accept that some things do not save on your person.

The idea that you can save things you wear/wield, and nothing is unbreakable, probably has more potential of being a complete solution. However it is also a huge change to what Genesis always has been, and comes with more issues that need to be fixed, and probably also more things that we haven't even thought of yet as well.

Here are some potential drawbacks / issues that need to be fixed that I have thought of so far:

- Free teleportation home. As long as you don't carry loot or backup weapons you can just teleport home at any time using "quit". Which kind of negates a lot of guild abilities and of course the iconic zodiac gem. This would most likely mean those abilities need to be tweaked, or at least less taxed, since they now are much less useful?

- What about items that aren't worn or wielded, and usually does not break? We need to figure out how things like orbs, ioun stones, wands, etc will work. If you hold it, will it save on you? And if so, how does it expire? For example: I get an ioun stone that I hold to heal up when I am not in combat (so it cant break even if we make it breakable). Every time I quit I make sure to hold it. Meaning it's mine forever and it will never break.

- EQ mules. You can use your seconds to load up on EQ for your main. Each time you get something elite, you let one of your other chars hold it for you, letting you pile up on several copies of all the good stuff. It'll be against the rules of course, but this has always something that is hard to prove if players are smart about it. It'll definitely be one more thing for the AoP team to monitor closely.

- Asking / paying others to hold EQ for you. If you have a couple of friends who has seconds they don't use, why not let them hold your stuff for you? You don't break any rules, then your seconds can hold their stuff for them. Win-win.

- Upset players. A big change like this will probably cause lot of discussion in in our community. Especially if things dos not work as intended and a lot of negative side effects are discovered. I don't think we should stop making changes to the game because of this, but it's still something to mention, especially when it comes to timing, so we don't end up doing this big change right when we get a big spike of new players who all walk into a big chat/forum fight. The imbuement change aftermath is an example on how toxic that can become.

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Drazson
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Drazson » 05 Sep 2018 06:53

- Free teleportation home: That's a thing right now anyway. The only thing that changes is that you get to keep a set of gear which is... the point, no? As for compensations to the teleporting abilities, I assume no guild has them as a semi-significant tool, yet I haven't had it so I can't judge that well. Or can I, since I only feel it would be a QoL improvement and nothing more? The quest item, make it more focused on the scanning thing in potency of result or variety of uses.

- EQ mules. Don't racks serve the same purpose with less of a hassle? Either way, there was the idea of binding stuff between seconds, once you wield it with c1 it's his/hers to hold and the other seconds are unable to use it.

- Asking / paying others to hold EQ for you. Again, racks? In a friend's guild that he/she trusts not to be racklooted, which is a thing (phew). Sounds more troublesome to deal with, indeed.

- Upset players. Beta test the effect it would have? No idea how domains work or anything but maybe setting up a clone of the donut or a test domain could be useful and invite testers or whatever. If there's not such a process then you either never make the change cause it's potentially too impactful to handle or go for it and fix things as they pop up.

Rangar
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Rangar » 05 Sep 2018 09:12

Cherek wrote: ...
- What about items that aren't worn or wielded, and usually does not break? We need to figure out how things like orbs, ioun stones, wands, etc will work. If you hold it, will it save on you? And if so, how does it expire? For example: I get an ioun stone that I hold to heal up when I am not in combat (so it cant break even if we make it breakable). Every time I quit I make sure to hold it. Meaning it's mine forever and it will never break.
Set a lifetime for all items at 28 days from coming into being. Even if you never damage your wand or ioun stone, it will expire when the time is up. On the other hand, you will be guaranteed to play with it for a month, so you can invest in imbues and/or be sure it will be there when you come back.

As for items that can't be worn or held or wielded, but that should be saved, maybe add 1-10 accessory slots for each players that can mark the item for safekeeping (wouldn't work on "equipables", so no marking ten FBBs for later).

On the other hand, we agree that what you can wield or wear stays, the other items are lost. What about herbs, potions, spell components, ammunition and other consumables? Can we assume they save as it is right now?
Cherek wrote: - EQ mules. You can use your seconds to load up on EQ for your main. Each time you get something elite, you let one of your other chars hold it for you, letting you pile up on several copies of all the good stuff. It'll be against the rules of course, but this has always something that is hard to prove if players are smart about it. It'll definitely be one more thing for the AoP team to monitor closely.
Bind on Equip for own seconds only. Also, as you are blocked from logging in multiple own characters at the same time, it's problematic - you have to drop your items in a safe spot, logout, log the second in and retrieve the items. And using an unregistered second (so you don't have to log your main out) is a violation of the rules, which can get you banned. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if Player A asks Player B to use their second, they are also in violation of the rules (sharing of characters is not allowed, isn't it?). If they merely meet the friend('s second) in game and give them the item, it's a valid strategy - just like they can do right now, at the risk of their friend going offline, selling the item, keeping it for themselves or getting killed and looted. So, no need to change antything.

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gorboth
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by gorboth » 05 Sep 2018 16:25

Rangar wrote:Bind on Equip for own seconds only. Also, as you are blocked from logging in multiple own characters at the same time, it's problematic - you have to drop your items in a safe spot, logout, log the second in and retrieve the items. And using an unregistered second (so you don't have to log your main out) is a violation of the rules, which can get you banned. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if Player A asks Player B to use their second, they are also in violation of the rules (sharing of characters is not allowed, isn't it?). If they merely meet the friend('s second) in game and give them the item, it's a valid strategy - just like they can do right now, at the risk of their friend going offline, selling the item, keeping it for themselves or getting killed and looted. So, no need to change antything.
It is highly illegal to coordinate gear between your own alts. We'll still want to delete people who do that. It is not illegal at all to tell people who your alts are. What is illegal is to tell people who OTHER's alts are.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Draugor
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Draugor » 05 Sep 2018 16:48

gorboth wrote:
Rangar wrote:Bind on Equip for own seconds only. Also, as you are blocked from logging in multiple own characters at the same time, it's problematic - you have to drop your items in a safe spot, logout, log the second in and retrieve the items. And using an unregistered second (so you don't have to log your main out) is a violation of the rules, which can get you banned. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if Player A asks Player B to use their second, they are also in violation of the rules (sharing of characters is not allowed, isn't it?). If they merely meet the friend('s second) in game and give them the item, it's a valid strategy - just like they can do right now, at the risk of their friend going offline, selling the item, keeping it for themselves or getting killed and looted. So, no need to change antything.
It is highly illegal to coordinate gear between your own alts. We'll still want to delete people who do that. It is not illegal at all to tell people who your alts are. What is illegal is to tell people who OTHER's alts are.

G.

"This item is soulbound and cant be given/dropped" And the geartransference is solved :P Also make them non re-buyable, alot of gear cant be rebought if sold already so

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Cherek
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by Cherek » 05 Sep 2018 19:25

Draugor: Hm yes, that solves it. But what if you want to replace your runed falchion with your newly found GSB? How do you get rid of the soulbound falchion? We need some kind of "dispose" command? Meaning once you've saved an item by quitting with it wielded, it can never go into racks or be given or sold, only destroyed, either by you voluntarily or when it breaks?

It works, but I am not sure... I'd like to be able to give my old stuff to a friend / guildmate I think. But perhaps that is an acceptable drawback of saving stuff on you.

sylphan
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Re: Problems if we get too many newbies

Post by sylphan » 05 Sep 2018 19:38

Another option would be for each player to have a personal locker wherever they <home> in which they can put a limited number of items (two? three?) of any type. Maybe the number could increase based on ... factors (Qxp? Mortal size? Something more imaginative?) And outside of this, everything else in the game stays exactly the same. This seems to me far simpler than the other changes being proposed, and would involve minimal repercussions. I'm sure I'm missing the reason there has to be some onerous cost, in which case this proposal will be summarily dismissed.

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