If the game were nerfed ...

Discuss general game topics or anything else that doesn't fit in the other forums
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.

If a balance bug-fix nerfed all specials, spells, and heal effects to 37% of current power levels:

Good move - I'd keep playing, even though I'd be weaker
35
43%
Not sure - I'd see what it was like, might stay, might not.
19
23%
Hate it - I don't want to be weaker! I would quit.
28
34%
 
Total votes: 82

User avatar
Drazson
Expert
Posts: 263
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Drazson » 02 Oct 2018 17:00

Kvator wrote:I am really curious how ogres went through balancing process :)
Indeed, they are impressively worse than most other options. :|

Kvator
Champion
Posts: 555
Joined: 02 Sep 2010 21:25

Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Kvator » 02 Oct 2018 17:04

Drazson wrote:
Kvator wrote:I am really curious how ogres went through balancing process :)
Indeed, they are impressively worse than most other options. :|
If standard (bugged) calculation was applied (like for every other guild) they should be much worse.

User avatar
Drazson
Expert
Posts: 263
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Drazson » 02 Oct 2018 17:06

Kvator wrote:If standard (bugged) calculation was applied (like for every other guild) they should be much worse.
Wait the %bug applies to how much you can wear helms and how much you are heard in adjacent rooms when you walk by? That's what I was talking about at least. :)

Zugzug
Veteran
Posts: 233
Joined: 20 May 2017 15:25

Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Zugzug » 02 Oct 2018 17:11

Kvator wrote:
Drazson wrote:
Kvator wrote:I am really curious how ogres went through balancing process :)
Indeed, they are impressively worse than most other options. :|
If standard (bugged) calculation was applied (like for every other guild) they should be much worse.
Any player who went from BDA (an "apex fighter" guild as Arman likes to phrase it) to ogres will tell you that in terms of killing, you will be able to do a lot more as an ogre.

Kvator
Champion
Posts: 555
Joined: 02 Sep 2010 21:25

Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Kvator » 02 Oct 2018 17:21

Zugzug wrote: Any player who went from BDA (an "apex fighter" guild as Arman likes to phrase it) to ogres will tell you that in terms of killing, you will be able to do a lot more as an ogre.
You are prolly exaggerating a bit here - but I don't think that AoD is bad or anything - and if this 'nerf' is applied in full (37%) they will become new kings of the mud (outdamaging everyone pretty hard) - that's why I am curious how they make it through the balancing process.

Val
Apprentice
Posts: 33
Joined: 31 Jul 2014 19:00

Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Val » 02 Oct 2018 17:28

As a caster I must admit I just don't get it.
Well, lets say now a fighter deals more or less 2/3 damage from specials and 1/3 from white hits. If his specials will be nerfed he still stays with quite decent damage from white hits plus what is left from specials. A caster does 100% damage with spells and nothing from white hits. If his specials (spells) will be nerfed to 1/3 it means he stays with 1/3 total damage. What kind of balance would it be? I do not suppose casters should be the weakest guilds damage-wise, should they?
Val

Zugzug
Veteran
Posts: 233
Joined: 20 May 2017 15:25

Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Zugzug » 02 Oct 2018 17:32

Kvator wrote:
Zugzug wrote: Any player who went from BDA (an "apex fighter" guild as Arman likes to phrase it) to ogres will tell you that in terms of killing, you will be able to do a lot more as an ogre.
You are prolly exaggerating a bit here - but I don't think that AoD is bad or anything - and if this 'nerf' is applied in full (37%) they will become new kings of the mud (outdamaging everyone pretty hard) - that's why I am curious how they make it through the balancing process.
I have no idea why you think I am exaggerating. I don't think any arches of anything are bad - but for a long time everyone said "we don't do live testing because we have formulas that work". Turns out they were a *little bit* off.

If you will accuse me of twisting facts or exaggerating, please back up your words with coherent arguments.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1381
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Amberlee » 02 Oct 2018 17:44

Val wrote:As a caster I must admit I just don't get it.
Well, lets say now a fighter deals more or less 2/3 damage from specials and 1/3 from white hits. If his specials will be nerfed he still stays with quite decent damage from white hits plus what is left from specials. A caster does 100% damage with spells and nothing from white hits. If his specials (spells) will be nerfed to 1/3 it means he stays with 1/3 total damage. What kind of balance would it be? I do not suppose casters should be the weakest guilds damage-wise, should they?
Val

Correct
Melees are already up there in strength with casters, but with this there would be no point in being caster unless the casters were re-balanced separately.
If that criteria is met I am all for the nerf actually.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

User avatar
gorboth
Site Admin
Posts: 2294
Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Location: Some old coffin

Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by gorboth » 02 Oct 2018 18:02

Drazson wrote:
Kvator wrote:I am really curious how ogres went through balancing process :)
Indeed, they are impressively worse than most other options. :|
Just so. I am not the sort of wizard who enjoys coding combat mechanics or thinking about combat mechanics very much. However, when I must, I think about them extremely carefully and take a lot of time to get them precisely how I want them to be. This was true with the way the npcs, for example, choose (or opt not to) assist one another in the orc temple near Sparkle. I fine tuned that process with vast amounts of trial and error to get it to feel a certain way that I thought would be fun and interesting.

I did the same with ogres, because ogres are such a vastly different type of guild when it comes to combat. The parameters for considering white-damage combat was so strange given their strength, potential sup-guru skill in 2-handed combat and club, and ability to double-wield one-handed weapons that have the max allowed damage in the game ... well, it took a very very special approach. The approach was that I wanted them to have one of the worst specials in the game, in a lot of ways, because they had the best "white-damage" in the game. So, the ogre special was hand-crafted to do a ton of damage, horribly slowly, and missing a lot. The result has been almost universally hated by players in the guild - to my deep and abiding satisfaction.

This guild was one of the very last to be created before we introduced the global balance initiative in 2009. Because I had just gotten the guild exactly where I wanted it, I decided that it should not get a balance recode - it was already absolutely perfect for how I wanted it to work. That belief lasted 9 more years until we discovered this bug that has called into question the results of our efforts since 2009.

I still believe the Ogres are balanced perfectly against the field of other guilds. However, if we were to change (nerf, boost, whatever) the way all specials that have received a recode to the new global standard, the ogres would suddenly be incorrect in (almost certainly) a big way. So, for me, the ogre balance was a great thing while it lasted. I would rather close the ogres than allow them to be better than other guilds at combat. And, I do not plan to close the ogres! So, last week I asked Carnak to see what he could do to recode the ogre special attack. He's done this on a test server that we can play around with, and we have the ability now to experiment with that and see how it goes. The change is not yet implemented in Genesis-actual, but will be in the not-too-distant future.

My goal is to have ogres feel exactly as they always have vs. other guilds. In other words - really fun advantages in some ways, really dreadful drawbacks in others.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

User avatar
gorboth
Site Admin
Posts: 2294
Joined: 03 Mar 2010 20:51
Location: Some old coffin

Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by gorboth » 02 Oct 2018 18:07

Hektor wrote:Gorboth, while I understand change is rapid and needed in order to still have a good game and prepare for the waves of newsters, please remember that you asked for opinions - not for opinions that you could shoot down just to support your argument :) - when I read into Dhez' note - I think Dhez presents a very good point.
Dhez, I hope the way I responded to your post didn't make you feel like I was shooting down anything you said to support my argument. I was trying to respond respectfully about how we have to be very careful with this, even though it might feel bad to have that type of care take a certain type of time. So, if Hektor is right, and my response felt like a rebuff, please accept my very sincere apology. This is a delicate topic, and I really do value honest and forthright input, whatever it may be.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/