If the game were nerfed ...

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If a balance bug-fix nerfed all specials, spells, and heal effects to 37% of current power levels:

Good move - I'd keep playing, even though I'd be weaker
35
43%
Not sure - I'd see what it was like, might stay, might not.
19
23%
Hate it - I don't want to be weaker! I would quit.
28
34%
 
Total votes: 82

Johnny
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Johnny » 02 Oct 2018 18:16

Seems to me everyone is focused on damage output and that everyone/guild needs to be on the same damage output level. I feel like that would be similar to going to the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa but only stare at the bottom left corner.

Anyways, I'm up for the change. I think it'll be fun learning to play with the change and how to make it work to my advantage. If it makes it easier for the few that are coding to slowly bring the game into balance and easier for future wizards to create their own works then go for it.

For those that don't know I'm in a OCC guild that does not have an offensive special so I'm used to mostly doing white hits anyways.

[Removed the last portion because it really didn't make sense or have any flow to what I previously said.]

Kvator
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Kvator » 02 Oct 2018 18:23

Zugzug wrote: I have no idea why you think I am exaggerating. I don't think any arches of anything are bad - but for a long time everyone said "we don't do live testing because we have formulas that work". Turns out they were a *little bit* off.

If you will accuse me of twisting facts or exaggerating, please back up your words with coherent arguments.
Been in both guilds (ogres and BDA past most recent change) - so my feelings are different than feelings you gave as an argument. Coherent enough? :)
gorboth wrote:
Drazson wrote:
Kvator wrote:I am really curious how ogres went through balancing process :)
Indeed, they are impressively worse than most other options. :|
Just so. I am not the sort of wizard who enjoys coding combat mechanics or thinking about combat mechanics very much. However, when I must, I think about them extremely carefully and take a lot of time to get them precisely how I want them to be. This was true with the way the npcs, for example, choose (or opt not to) assist one another in the orc temple near Sparkle. I fine tuned that process with vast amounts of trial and error to get it to feel a certain way that I thought would be fun and interesting.

I did the same with ogres, because ogres are such a vastly different type of guild when it comes to combat. The parameters for considering white-damage combat was so strange given their strength, potential sup-guru skill in 2-handed combat and club, and ability to double-wield one-handed weapons that have the max allowed damage in the game ... well, it took a very very special approach. The approach was that I wanted them to have one of the worst specials in the game, in a lot of ways, because they had the best "white-damage" in the game. So, the ogre special was hand-crafted to do a ton of damage, horribly slowly, and missing a lot. The result has been almost universally hated by players in the guild - to my deep and abiding satisfaction.

This guild was one of the very last to be created before we introduced the global balance initiative in 2009. Because I had just gotten the guild exactly where I wanted it, I decided that it should not get a balance recode - it was already absolutely perfect for how I wanted it to work. That belief lasted 9 more years until we discovered this bug that has called into question the results of our efforts since 2009.

I still believe the Ogres are balanced perfectly against the field of other guilds. However, if we were to change (nerf, boost, whatever) the way all specials that have received a recode to the new global standard, the ogres would suddenly be incorrect in (almost certainly) a big way. So, for me, the ogre balance was a great thing while it lasted. I would rather close the ogres than allow them to be better than other guilds at combat. And, I do not plan to close the ogres! So, last week I asked Carnak to see what he could do to recode the ogre special attack. He's done this on a test server that we can play around with, and we have the ability now to experiment with that and see how it goes. The change is not yet implemented in Genesis-actual, but will be in the not-too-distant future.

My goal is to have ogres feel exactly as they always have vs. other guilds. In other words - really fun advantages in some ways, really dreadful drawbacks in others.

G.
Thank you for answer - it confirmed my assumption that "global balance" is not that global after all - with exceptions being made for high-ranked wizards :) Don't get me wrong - ogre emotes and help are one of the funniest things in the game - but if there was any investigation regarding balance formula / caid done for ogres (a.k.a Keepers guild :) ) this bug wouldn't last that long imho.
Last edited by Kvator on 02 Oct 2018 18:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Luma
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Luma » 02 Oct 2018 18:30

Amberlee wrote:
Val wrote:As a caster I must admit I just don't get it.
Well, lets say now a fighter deals more or less 2/3 damage from specials and 1/3 from white hits. If his specials will be nerfed he still stays with quite decent damage from white hits plus what is left from specials. A caster does 100% damage with spells and nothing from white hits. If his specials (spells) will be nerfed to 1/3 it means he stays with 1/3 total damage. What kind of balance would it be? I do not suppose casters should be the weakest guilds damage-wise, should they?
Val

Correct
Melees are already up there in strength with casters, but with this there would be no point in being caster unless the casters were re-balanced separately.
If that criteria is met I am all for the nerf actually.
I have to agree. If the nerf is done and casters are not rebalanced, they may become the weakest players.

Zugzug
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Zugzug » 02 Oct 2018 18:47

Kvator wrote:
Zugzug wrote: I have no idea why you think I am exaggerating. I don't think any arches of anything are bad - but for a long time everyone said "we don't do live testing because we have formulas that work". Turns out they were a *little bit* off.

If you will accuse me of twisting facts or exaggerating, please back up your words with coherent arguments.
Been in both guilds (ogres and BDA past most recent change) - so my feelings are different than feelings you gave as an argument. Coherent enough? :)
Were you a decent-sized myth in post-rebalance (when dishearten got taken out a year or so ago) BDA, and were you a myth in ogres? Or are you comparing GA-level chars in both and applying your feelings to comparison?

In case you don't know, ogre stats work in a different way from non-ogre stats (that follow a nice exponential curve, for which the formula is out in public domain).

Therock
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Therock » 02 Oct 2018 19:28

I see pros and cons to it both. THe biggest pro I see is I think it would generate more team play in genesis. It may be harder to gather certain gear now , but with the new saving of gear system in place , I am sure most guilds with active members are stacked with gear for months now. (non active guilds dont have this luxury) The con I see is if people view it as a con , fights will be more challenging possibly resulting in more deaths vs big NPCs.

Kvator
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Kvator » 02 Oct 2018 20:13

Zugzug wrote:
Kvator wrote:
Zugzug wrote: I have no idea why you think I am exaggerating. I don't think any arches of anything are bad - but for a long time everyone said "we don't do live testing because we have formulas that work". Turns out they were a *little bit* off.

If you will accuse me of twisting facts or exaggerating, please back up your words with coherent arguments.
Been in both guilds (ogres and BDA past most recent change) - so my feelings are different than feelings you gave as an argument. Coherent enough? :)
Were you a decent-sized myth in post-rebalance (when dishearten got taken out a year or so ago) BDA, and were you a myth in ogres? Or are you comparing GA-level chars in both and applying your feelings to comparison?

In case you don't know, ogre stats work in a different way from non-ogre stats (that follow a nice exponential curve, for which the formula is out in public domain).
ogre - myth
BDA - champion (close to legend)

good enough?

Drazson
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Drazson » 02 Oct 2018 21:09

Johnny wrote:Seems to me everyone is focused on damage output and that everyone/guild needs to be on the same damage output level. I feel like that would be similar to going to the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa but only stare at the bottom left corner.
Thank you, exactly.

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Ody
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Ody » 02 Oct 2018 21:50

At a certain point I think a bug simply becomes a feature. I don't think a major disruption is worth trying to fix this. I think it will have harmful effects and break some guilds to the point of being unplayable altogether. Maybe a simpler solution would be to buff guilds that are underperforming and just accept that this is a "specials" based game. Rather than nerfing across the board buff some guilds that are underperforming.

Essentially this is the way the game is played and what people are used to, there's no point ruining that for people. Just individually rebalance guilds until things work, rather than breaking a bunch of stuff to fix something I don't really see as a problem. You broke it, you bought it.
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Manglor
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Manglor » 02 Oct 2018 23:15

Ody wrote:At a certain point I think a bug simply becomes a feature. I don't think a major disruption is worth trying to fix this. I think it will have harmful effects and break some guilds to the point of being unplayable altogether. Maybe a simpler solution would be to buff guilds that are underperforming and just accept that this is a "specials" based game. Rather than nerfing across the board buff some guilds that are underperforming.

Essentially this is the way the game is played and what people are used to, there's no point ruining that for people. Just individually rebalance guilds until things work, rather than breaking a bunch of stuff to fix something I don't really see as a problem. You broke it, you bought it.
I truly think, at this point, this is the easiest solution. Is some fine tuning needed? Absolutely. It's a game-changing nerf really needed? No, it's not. Address the guilds that need to be fixed and brought up to the "standard" and voila! You have it. There have been so many issues of wizard interference, cheating, exploited bugs, etc. over the 2 decades that I have played this game, this is hardly a major one in comparison. This is the current state of the game and has been for almost 10 years. What's the problem?

Is the concern is that new players can't catch up to old ones? That's a lie. Look at Zugzug. Put in the effort and you'll be rewarded. The playing field is already leveled (except some outliers, which should be fixed), a big nerf provides no real benefit to the game as a whole. It'd be comparatively the same as it is now, except a lot more boring and dull. Requiring healers and tanks SHOULD be a major issue, but fixed by creating new content, not nerfing the entire game and forcing players to essentially play a different game in order to find exciting and engaging content -- which a team of seven in Mithas would most assuredly not be.

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gorboth
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by gorboth » 03 Oct 2018 00:12

Manglor wrote: which a team of seven in Mithas would most assuredly not be.
I am not disagreeing with you, but can you explain why you think this is?

G.
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