If the game were nerfed ...

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If a balance bug-fix nerfed all specials, spells, and heal effects to 37% of current power levels:

Good move - I'd keep playing, even though I'd be weaker
34
42%
Not sure - I'd see what it was like, might stay, might not.
19
23%
Hate it - I don't want to be weaker! I would quit.
28
35%
 
Total votes: 81

Draugor
Myth
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Draugor » 11 Oct 2018 17:43

Zugzug wrote: I actually agree with Draugor. Just with a tiny caveat - nuke the combat xp of people who ask to nuke combat xp.

Also nuke forum troll accounts :)

Not trolling in the slightest, a meganerf like this will make catching up to the 24/7 grinders more or less impossible since the headstart is way to massive
Its kinda like putting leadshoes on the runners when some already have an insane advantage :P So if they are doing the nerf, they might aswell do that aswell.

Carnak
Apprentice
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Carnak » 12 Oct 2018 15:27

Draugor wrote: Not trolling in the slightest, a meganerf like this will make catching up to the 24/7 grinders more or less impossible since the headstart is way to massive
Its kinda like putting leadshoes on the runners when some already have an insane advantage :P So if they are doing the nerf, they might aswell do that aswell.
I can start by saying that it is not very likely that the admins would choose to nerf anyones accumulated experience.

It would seem the two major concerns that players have, are the following:
1. people think casters will suffer
- Casters should not suffer any more than melee in this change, the calculation for loss of melee hits would be adjusted accordingly.

2. catching up to bigger players will be impossible.
- This is actually a valid concern, and could likely be fixed by simply increasing the experience gained from kills, meaning you would kill a lot slower, but gain experience at the same rate as you are now.

These are the up and downsides of the changes as I see it.

The downsides of this change:
1. You will feel like you are hitting your target with a wet noodle.
2. Player fights will be a lot longer than they are now.
3. Things will be more difficult due to longer fights (Depends on how you see this)
4. You will gain less experience (Unless something is done about it)

The upsides of this change:
1. Weapon hits will be more useful, reducing the cleft between a number of guilds.
2. Dual wield will become more useful, one-handed weapons would once again be an option for guilds that have the skill.
3. XP areas would effectively increase, as things take 3 times as long to kill.
4. Things will be more difficult due to longer fights (Depends on how you see this) If the fights are infact more difficult, you can have larger teams and incorporate healers and tanks.

In my opinion as a long time player, I think it is an overall good change. It would take some time getting used to the hitting like a noodle part. Though, just changing guilds sometimes has the same effect, and I've somehow managed to get over that.

Waiting in anticipation,
Carnak

bugs
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by bugs » 12 Oct 2018 20:25

Carnak wrote: It would seem the two major concerns that players have, are the following:
1. people think casters will suffer
- Casters should not suffer any more than melee in this change, the calculation for loss of melee hits would be adjusted accordingly.
How? Casters don't do any melee dmg while casting and you are constantly casting, so if they are going to get 1/3 power, their total power goes down pretty much (EDIT: and what about mana regen/pool rebalance that was done according to current power levels? There are fights you end up with 0 mana now, 3x longer fight would suddenly require 3x bigger mana pool if we're all the time assuming 3x longer fight is just that, will herbs get 3x stronger to allow for that, will mana cost of spells drop 3x, are we back to big mana pool and slower recovery?). Maybe some casters that enchant weapons and deal damage with them exist, but it was unfeasible as SoHM, haste-warlocking is nice for alignment grinding in small areas, outside of that it's just blast your dmg special until the mob dies.
2. catching up to bigger players will be impossible.
- This is actually a valid concern, and could likely be fixed by simply increasing the experience gained from kills, meaning you would kill a lot slower, but gain experience at the same rate as you are now.
That would mostly help in recovering after death, not sure if that aspect was brought up, but the whole death-recovery system was exactly to not discourage players as the growth is so slow, now it will become just 3x longer and being unable to kill monsters that give X amount of exp and having to go at smaller monsters, means less exp, as we get less xp from smaller monsters. The results need to be tested, as I'm pretty sure it will be much slower than 3x (3x just assumes you take 3x longer to kill an enemy, some thanks to having 3x healing time will just not be killable and stay at FVW-sore, so you'll have to make do killing smaller npcs, less XP as they are not that much bigger than you now, the whole XP curve needs rebalancing to make sense)
These are the up and downsides of the changes as I see it.

The downsides of this change:
1. You will feel like you are hitting your target with a wet noodle.
2. Player fights will be a lot longer than they are now.
3. Things will be more difficult due to longer fights (Depends on how you see this)
4. You will gain less experience (Unless something is done about it)

The upsides of this change:
1. Weapon hits will be more useful, reducing the cleft between a number of guilds.
Weapon hits will still be at their current level, just comparatively more useful to your wet noodle charge/mattack on top of that. If you want to fix non-special dmg/s, please do that, it's kind of silly that you sup guru as merc in sword/two handed/defence and parry and still do 90% of your effective combat with mattack. Are we sure there isn't some decade old bug that makes normal attack 1/3 of their expected power? Boost that and the whole problem disappears
2. Dual wield will become more useful, one-handed weapons would once again be an option for guilds that have the skill.
Are we going to get sup amateur in two-handed combat and parry back? I'm all for it. Even though they are 'imbuable', getting a useful level is not really an option.
3. XP areas would effectively increase, as things take 3 times as long to kill.
4. Things will be more difficult due to longer fights (Depends on how you see this) If the fights are infact more difficult, you can have larger teams and incorporate healers and tanks.
Maybe let the playerbase recover a bit more before it is a requirement for being able to kill most stuff? If getting a team with tanks and healers was easy, yeah, sure, sounds like a great option, but listed as a good point of the change when it is unknowable if there will be people left to team up with, sounds like should be listed in the cons.

Manglor
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Manglor » 13 Oct 2018 04:43

Bugs wrote:literally gibberish
Try re-reading and editing your post for clarity...
Carnak wrote:The upsides of this change:
1. Weapon hits will be more useful, reducing the cleft between a number of guilds.
We don't care. Ogres become OP then get nerfed as per Gorboth. ZERO SUM.
Carnak wrote:2. Dual wield will become more useful, one-handed weapons would once again be an option for guilds that have the skill.
Agreed, that's shitty fucking coding and should be fixed, but you don't need to ruin the game to fix that. Nor is it hard to figure out that two great weapons should be better than one heavy great weapon with the same hit/pen. But yet here we are, ten years later and this is the best you, the wizard community can propose?
Carnak wrote: 3. XP areas would effectively increase, as things take 3 times as long to kill.
No.
Carnak wrote:4. Things will be more difficult due to longer fights (Depends on how you see this) If the fights are infact more difficult, you can have larger teams and incorporate healers and tanks.
If and when we have the legitimate playerbase to support this, then I agree. We don't, so you can't use this as anything resembling a positive. But under no circumstances should we be force-fed the "Hey boys, listen, I know you've been doing literally the same content for a decade, but now here's what we're gonna do: you're going to kill at 1/3 the speed with no extra incentive but you'll still feel good about it, right?" If you want more challenging content then code it for the mortals and add in the necessity for healers, tanks, NON BOTS, etc. Don't recycle the same content we've been doing and tell us it's new and exciting. That's insulting to us all.

Carnak wrote: In my opinion as a long time player, I think it is an overall good change. It would take some time getting used to the hitting like a noodle part. Though, just changing guilds sometimes has the same effect, and I've somehow managed to get over that.

Waiting in anticipation,
Carnak
I have the highest regard for you, you know this. However, you used to play, years ago. You don't currently. You have an absolutely "wunderkind" level of understanding code, but there is literally no way you can spin this as a positive. Every wizard who goes "geeze guys, I know it's been a decade but this can actually be perceived as a good thing" has failed miserably at making any relevant points in today's game to justify it.

You either decide that a) the game has been f*cked for a decade and that's the de-factor new normal or b) choose to nerf the game and make it one that no player will truly recognize. But please, don't try to feed me a shit sandwich and tell me it's from a 3 Michelin Star restaurant, despite whatever admin told you to come here and try to lie to us.

Someone, anyone, please tell me why this is the "only" option to save the game. You've all failed miserably at every turn. Try harder or for the love of god, let it go. Let us play the game we know and love and let us get on with our lives.

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gorboth
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by gorboth » 13 Oct 2018 06:02

Manglor (and others,)

Please accept my apology about all of this. The way that this topic has been handled by wizards (myself included) has been haphazard, resulting in a lot of anxiety by players who are waiting for it to be resolved.

Here's a summary of what has happened so far, from my perspective. Balance considerations revolving around haste lead to an investigation of combat mechanics. Carnak delved into the topic, discovering something far more fundamental about combat that had gone unnoticed for over a decade. Arman shared this issue, posting it here in the forums, in a spirit of transparency and participation with the player community, which is something I know people appreciate. I had been very busy RL, and unable to check all my board and mail reading, and logged in to find that all of this had happened. I then began to look into the matter a bit myself. Knowing that the community was invested at this point, I created my poll (this very thread.)

Since that time, literally nothing else has happened in any official way. What has happened, unofficially, is many conversations by and between both players and wizards, some here on the forum, but most often in conversation territory such as the Discord Chat. What I believe has also happened is rampant speculation (which is, of course, perfectly natural.)

I have been very busy, and unable to provide Admin guidance for the topic, but that will now change, as I can see that it must be resolved, at least informationally, so that players do not fear for the future in ways that make it hard for them to enjoy the present.

So, going forward, allow me to make some assurances:
  • A straight nerf will, absolutely, not be happening. Some players have been in favor of this, seeming to not care if a massive nerf just kind of "happens" ... "ripping the bandaid off" etc. etc. so that the wound of imbalance can heal, no matter the pain for the present. This was, after all, something very much asked in the poll question, and it was good to hear what people thought. Some players even went so far as to suggest a player wipe! Any and all of these types of options are just about the worst thing I could imagine doing right now. So - fear not. It will not happen this way.
  • "Do nothing" is certainly an option. It is being considered, but most of the wizards agree it is a poor choice, in the long run. Yes, we have all gotten used to what the game feels like this way, and many people have enjoyed immensely the play they've been doing based on it year after year. Another thing none of us can deny is that it does not take very long for a dedicated player to outstrip the power-level of the content of 99% of the game, to the point that they are limited to one or two prime zones to play in, doing the same thing over and over, day in and day out, rinse-wash-repeat. Tons of potentially meaningful game content is rendered irrelevant because of this. Might there not be a better answer? Read on ...
  • One potential benefit of the right type of change could potentially make it so that we move that 99% irrelevancy rate down closer to 75%, such that even our biggest players could enjoy many zones they abandoned years ago for meaningful exp growth. Current myth-only zones would still be available, and give vastly more exp than they do now, but would probably be possible only for teams of the most powerful players. The key to anything like this is ... well ... read on.
  • The type of successful outcome that I would be interested in would be something that players would experience as an "adjustment" rather than a "nerf." This type of outcome would not be achieved with just one simple shift to one part of combat. Instead, it would take into account all of the relevant aspects of play that would matter to players. I believe that most of these boil down to one question: - how quickly and easily can I gain combat exp? Any adjustment we make to the way combat functions in Genesis must not downgrade a player's ability in that regard. So, what I will tell you all is that if we do adjust things, I will be looking for a solution that does not slow down growth, regardless of what class (melee/caster) you prefer to play. We cannot create a system that advantages players who achieved their size before the adjustment, such that players post-adjustment would never be able to do the same. That would be ridiculous, and will not happen.
I hope this helps people feel better. I am sure I have not answered all your questions, but I hope I have answered the fundamental ones. So, please know that you can play, and enjoy the game, and that if we make an adjustment we will be doing so with my above-stated goals front and center.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

Manglor
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Manglor » 13 Oct 2018 12:09

Thanks, Gorboth. I'm glad you were able to help in clearing a few things up. Every mention of the change, especially from Wizards, pointed to a change that would have us feel about 1/3 as effective as we are now (and this hurts when it comes from literally the wizard in charge of balance!) Couple this with no mention of any changes to assist players in softening the blow (i.e. slower killing but same xp/hr, etc.) and there's no wonder players are upset.

I, for one, welcome our new Ogre overlords.

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Arman
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Arman » 13 Oct 2018 16:14

Manglor wrote:Thanks, Gorboth. I'm glad you were able to help in clearing a few things up. Every mention of the change, especially from Wizards, pointed to a change that would have us feel about 1/3 as effective as we are now (and this hurts when it comes from literally the wizard in charge of balance!) Couple this with no mention of any changes to assist players in softening the blow (i.e. slower killing but same xp/hr, etc.) and there's no wonder players are upset.
Sorry you felt upset. I was merely articulating the problem, not the solution.

bugs
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by bugs » 13 Oct 2018 21:06

Arman wrote:
Mim wrote: I agree, if specials were lowered 37% it would be a PAIN. Until you got used to it.
Just to be really clear, we aren't proposing lowering specials by 37%. We are lowering them TO 37% of what they currently are. That is what the fix would do. The damage output you would have normally got out of one special attack, offensive spell, or heal, would now require around three of those specials to match
I am so glad this is not what it means, or is not what it is planned to mean. Don't apologize, as originally it meant just that, and luckily we have G to say NO to that absurd brick of the game. Still happy to play this game, and hope everyone that voted YES to nerf everyone is not angry enough to leave

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Drazson
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by Drazson » 13 Oct 2018 21:42

What was the point of the vote between those 2.5 distinct choices? Hidden camera equivalent for polls?

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gorboth
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Re: If the game were nerfed ...

Post by gorboth » 13 Oct 2018 21:48

The point was to see how players would feel about it. We got that. :-)

Arman was not the one advocating for the nerf, and I was certainly not the one telling him or anyone else no. This is just the way things tend to go if we involve everyone in knowing all the information.

Transparency is not a panacea!

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

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